It is...inevitable?

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Lidless
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Post by Lidless »

MithLuin wrote:Think of the alternative...that we are all puppets. I reject that not only because I want some control over my own life...but also because it makes my life meaningless. There is no point to the story if the characters are all constrained to act as automatons.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Mmmmm .... counterfactuals can always be proposed, but they're not any more provable than the facts they counter.

Sartre said, "Skepticism is destroyed not from the absolute but because it fails to explain the effective results we obtain."

If we are going to tackle a problem like this, then I think that the arguments have to account for effective experience, even if only to note that experience introduces an irreducible bias, such as the temporal orientation that Faramond mentioned.

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Post by Ethel »

Lidless wrote:
Faramond wrote:but why then is my awareness of color and taste and light part of this chain of chemical reactions?
Because an accidental miscopying of the then-current set of DNA gave it an edge over the competition, thus it successfully propagated and dominated the old version.
I agree with this answer, and yet in a way it explains nothing, or nothing satisfactory. I think consciousness is quite mysterious. Why do most people believe in God and an afterlife? Was that something that was needed to 'stabilize' this new way of apprehending the world, or just a genetic accident? Or an innate perception of an invisible reality? We pride ourselves on our reason, and indeed it has accomplished much, but we are still driven to a remarkable degree by animal desires and needs. Why do we have such a compelling need for stories? Is the need to create art somehow inherent in consciousness or just a happy accident? Do creatures besides humans suffer from boredom? Is the experience of boredom somehow tied to a sense of time's passage?

Er... not sure where I'm going with this. It's just the sort of thing I ponder in my spare time.

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Post by axordil »

Surely my awareness isn't necessary for my body to accept the stimuli and produce the action that results?
Not at all. Self-awareness and the internal monlogue it generates are side effects of a brain of sufficient complexity, but they are side effects, as Lidless notes, that have proved evolutionary useful. Thus those with consciousness have fared better than those without, at least in the relatively short run.

But that's a bit of a side issue. Faramond touched on the point that I made (albeit humorously) early, that is since our consciousnesses are generated by ongoing series of chemical reactions, our perception of time is too. That is, what happened in the "past" is recorded in chemical memory, while what will happen in the future is not yet...from our point of view, which is chained to look only in one "direction."

In this regard, it is helpful to remember that matter is not only particle, not even probabilistic particle, but wave function as well. It is hypothetically possible to create a single wave function equation describing every gram of matter and electron volt of energy that would describe the material universe ex nusquam ut nusquam, with all of our choices already made and in the mix.

But from our point of view, it doesn't matter, since we can't perceive the universe that way. Every choice that comes up before us is going to FEEL like a real one, because to us it IS. The fact that we can't see the events on the other side of the choice, even if they are, like the rest of events in the universe, already there, is as irrelevant as saying there's a room you can't see behind a door you've never opened, and that it exists before you open it. Until YOU open the door, the room can't be perceived by YOU.

What a rambling mess that was. :scratch:
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Ax wrote:But from our point of view, it doesn't matter, since we can't perceive the universe that way. Every choice that comes up before us is going to FEEL like a real one, because to us it IS.
I maintain that they are real choices. Sure, from the proper four-dimensional perspective you could see all of time at once, but I think the "shape" of that spacetime is created by our choices. We are not sliding down a track; we're making one, moment by moment (as we see it), or we are the influence that made the "track" that shape (as an "outside" witness would see). The part of the universe we inhabit is the shape it is because we inhabit it.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by axordil »

Primula Baggins wrote:
Ax wrote:But from our point of view, it doesn't matter, since we can't perceive the universe that way. Every choice that comes up before us is going to FEEL like a real one, because to us it IS.
I maintain that they are real choices. Sure, from the proper four-dimensional perspective you could see all of time at once, but I think the "shape" of that spacetime is created by our choices. We are not sliding down a track; we're making one, moment by moment (as we see it), or we are the influence that made the "track" that shape (as an "outside" witness would see). The part of the universe we inhabit is the shape it is because we inhabit it.
We have to see it that way, yes. :)
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Post by Jnyusa »

Don't confuse the model with the reality. ;)

At the sub-atomic level there may not appear to be the forwards and backwards that we experience at the (relatively) macro level, but that does not mean necessarily that the 'future' has already happened and we just can't see it.

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Post by Lidless »

Primula Baggins wrote:We are not sliding down a track; we're making one, moment by moment (as we see it)
Yet if you are sliding down a track, no amount of thought, willpower or Self will make you defy gravity and go uphill.
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Post by Maria »

Mithluin wrote:We cannot break, or even bend, the laws that govern the physical world - we are constrained by physics and chemistry and biology.
Sez you! :P
Lidless wrote:Yet if you are sliding down a track, no amount of thought, willpower or Self will make you defy gravity and go uphill.
Please try these out with a partner:clicky The "unliftable body" technique is one I was taught in Judo, and I used to think of it as mass multiplication. ;) One really can make themselves seem heavier than they are, or to have an arm that someone stronger cannot bend. I even reversed the unliftable body technique when I had severe foot pain, so that I felt lighter on my feet and they didn't hurt so bad.

Reality is somewhat malleable.
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Post by Faramond »

I do not advocate that the future has already happened and fixed, and that we cannot see it.

I will advocate that a choice may extend into the past and the future, and so change it. 'Past' and 'future' are products of our perception in any case, and by our choices our perception of the past and future change, and so in fact both the past and the future are changed by our choices. I am not advocating time travel; rather I am insisting that the past and the future be placed in the correct metaphysical category. And when we are talking about the past and the future, we are really talking about "cause and effect". "Cause and effect" is subject to extreme perspectival bias and unreliable, in my opinion.

A choice does not belong to a single moment. When we first perceive a choice, it has been already happening for some time, and it will continue to happen for some time, if it is really is a choice. I will give an example later.

Ax: Not at all. Self-awareness and the internal monlogue it generates are side effects of a brain of sufficient complexity, but they are side effects, as Lidless notes, that have proved evolutionary useful. Thus those with consciousness have fared better than those without, at least in the relatively short run.

Is awareness a part of the electrochemical chain that forces us to take actions? If no, then awareness surely cannot be evolutionarily useful. A human without awareness would act exactly the same as a human with awareness. Why would the human with awareness be more likely to survive?

If awareness is a part of the electrochemical chain that forces action, then it's not really an electrochemical chain anymore. There is something outside of physics intruding.

This gets back to some of the oldest philosophical questions. What does it mean to see? How does it happen? I don't mean descriptions of the eyeball, and the retina, and neurons, and the vision center of the brain ... these descriptions merely push the question back further ... they do not answer it.
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Post by Maria »

Part of how I'm managing to diet sucessfully is how I look at space time. Back in January when I decided I really needed to get down to a healthy weight, I envisioned myself in August 2006 (when my diet program said I'd be done) having already lost the weight. I was there. I made it real in my mind. At THAT node in time, the weight loss is already accomplished. It's done. I'm still at THIS node in time, but all I have to do to get there is keep doing what I'm doing and then I will get to that reality/time node where it is already accomplished.

Kinda weird, I know, but it worked for me. Instead of despairing and thinking , "I'll never lose all this weight!" I think, "In a future point in time, I've already lost this weight. It is done. Now I just do what I have to do to get there."
Prim wrote:But that isn't true of human life and creativity; people from the same background, the same family, even identical twins with identical genetic complements turn out to be different people who often react differently to the same stimulus.
You should read about identical twins raised apart, who didn't even know they were twins. Fascinating stuff, especially as to how they make many of the same sorts of life choices at the same time in life and that sort of thing. I haven't decided if I think it's because their DNA is influencing them to behave in a certain way, or if they just unknowingly have a psychic link with their twin, such that their choices are influenced by subconscious knowledge of what the other twin is dealing with the same situation.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Yes, some of those separated-twin stories are startling. But I don't see that as evidence that DNA is destiny—more that our bodies can influence the choices we make. That doesn't mean we don't make the choices, outside of extreme conditions and disease states.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by nerdanel »

that does not mean necessarily that the 'future' has already happened and we just can't see it.
No, it doesn't. However...

No one here is going to argue that each "choice" we make is perfectly "free" - that is, everyone must acknowledge that each "choice" is to some extent influenced by our circumstances. To use a blatantly obvious example, today and every day, I will make the choice not to steal food. My choice is influenced by the fact that I am not hungry. Either my meals are provided free of charge or I can afford to pay for them. If I was starving and destitute, the choice between theft and death becomes gradually less and less free until I must choose: either I steal to avoid starvation or I die.

I think it's easy to see the lack of volition when humans are reduced to catering to our animal needs - to sleep, to eat, etc. Another example: if circumstances force me to go without a single hour of sleep for two weeks, the next time I sleep after that may not so much involve a conscious choice to sleep, as my body indulging a physical need out of pure necessity.

It's more confusing when we act in response to higher-level needs. For instance, in another thread, Ax and Prim noted that the desire for human security (Ax) and the freedom to be yourself and yet not alone (Prim) were powerful motivating instincts. Let's assume that these two needs are very, very strong in hypothetical human A. A craves the comfort of a relationship, the human give-and-take of sharing her life with another person, the security of being cared for and the growth inherent in caring for someone else. Has A made the volitional choice to feel this way? Or is it simply a function of all the experiences that A has had to that point? Put bluntly, was it inevitable that A, on June 15, 2006, would feel this way about relationships, based on all of A's experiences from birth to 6/15/2006? And, if B, a partner who is physically, emotionally, and sexually compatible with A, appears on the horizon today and expresses his or her interest in A - to what extent is A's choice to be with B free and unfettered? Put differently, A certainly can respond "Yes" or "No" to B's expression of interest in her. But is it inevitable, based on all her experiences up to 6/15/2006, everything that has gone into A's current views on relationships, that A will say "yes" to a relationship with B?

I think it's an open question. I do NOT think that A makes a truly "real choice" solely because in theory, she could say yes or no to B without the world ending, the police arresting her, or an earthquake resulting. The choice that A is to make could well be lurking on the other side of the door all along, even if she does not yet know it is there.

I also think it's a moot point. As Ax states, "it doesn't matter, because we can't perceive the universe that way." Whether or not the choice that A will make exists, is known to others (e.g. God), and will ultimately be an inevitable consequence of A's life experiences, is irrelevant from A's standpoint at the moment she is confronted with the possibility of the relationship and has to say "Yes" or "No". SHE may not yet know the choice that her life experiences may inexorably lead her to make. Whether or not there is anything on the other side of that door the moment before A opens her mouth to answer is completely irrelevant except for one thing.

Humans are supremely egotistical. We want for there not to be anything on the other side of that door until A makes her CHOICE. Prim puts it well - we want to create the very shape of space time. It seems wrong and insulting if we are merely playing our part, puppets controlled by a supreme puppetmaster (or simply by "fate", for the secular among us.) We want to be more important than that. Masters of our fate, captains of our destiny, determiners (in part) of how time itself is to unfold. Perhaps we are - and if so, what an awesome responsibility! But I do not think we are simply by virtue of the fact that we crave that, because it makes our lives feel more real and more meaningful.
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Post by axordil »

Actually, there is no evidence that awareness exists outside brain chemistry, and quite a bit that it exists happily within it. Various brain disorders and trauma have very specific effects on consciousness, from anterograde amnesia to viewing one's body as a foriegn object.

Note that I don't think consciousness is necessarily connected or unconnected to having a soul (which is an unfalsifiable concept anyway).

The advantage that self-awareness and consciousness provide is the ability to map the external world to an internal model, to manipulate that model in the absence of external stimuli, and to share pieces of that model, via language, with others. It lets me remember how I downed that mastodon, consider what I did that made it possible, and then share both my memory and my annotations with you via language, so that you can benefit from my experience and judgment without having had the experience yourself.

That's a powerful tool, the most powerful one we have. It makes abstract thinking and language and civilization possible.
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Post by Faramond »

But awareness isn't necessary to make internal maps of external stimuli. Computers do this all the time. Are they aware?

One could say that there is no awareness without brain chemistry, but that isn't anything like saying that awareness is explained by brain chemistry.
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Post by axordil »

Computers do it only when they are programmed to. No one programmed us. We bootstrapped ourselves, creating both the maps and the mechanism for creating them.
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Post by MithLuin »

I agree with nerdanel - there are constraints on our choices. But at the same time...we do make choices. Neither extreme (fate, choice) is an accurate picture of reality. You seldom get to make a choice in perfect freedom...yet at the same time, you are seldom completely restrained, either. The more "predictable" outcomes tend to result from disease - someone who has been abused (or the like) is more likely to reject the overture of a relationship, or at least have misgivings. They are "trapped" by their trauma, unable to make a choice freely. Someone who is desperate and insecure will latch onto anyone who looks at them, thus also behaving predictably...and not choosing freely. And yet...the typical story of how people met and fell in love has nothing to do with constraint, and everything to do with meeting, choosing... "what was different about your father was..."

As for the twins - the reason we study the lives of identical twins (raised apart and raised together) is to try to understand the impact of genetics (and developmental history) on certain traits, as opposed to the impact of environment and experience. In some cases, environment matters more (non-related siblings raised together in the same family is the other source of info). In other cases, it seems to be all genetics. In others...it's inconclusive. You cannot make broad sweeping statements about what causes human behavior. You have to be very specific, if you want to be accurate. Sometimes, even taking nature and nurture into account, people will surprise you...that anamoly, the point that doesn't fall nicely on the graphed line....a great source for future research!

Maria - Perception of mass and mass are two different things. Making something heavy feel light (or vice versa) is one thing. Having the scale read differently is another. Mass is a property of matter - the more matter you have crammed into an object, the more it weighs. The techniques you described do not alter this - they do not destroy the mass, merely change how it is perceived. If you stood on a scale, and made yourself feel light, you would not see the scale change. Because the scale is measuring the amount of mass, and your technique does not impact how it works.
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Post by Faramond »

I really don't see what awareness and programming have to do with each other.

Why should it matter that a computer does it only when programmed to? Why should the conditions for awareness have anything to do with who the programmer was?
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Re: It is...inevitable?

Post by BrianIsSmilingAtYou »

Ethel wrote:
Lidless wrote:Is the universe clockwork on the macro-level? Was it already determined say just 10,000 years ago that I was destined to write this post, and you would read it? Or was there sufficient chance over that time that there was a significant possibility it would not happen? What about 1,000,000 years ago? From yesterday to today, was the chance that it would not happen so small as to be discarded for all practical purposes? Did this bunch of pungent chemicals called Lidless really have a "choice"?
I would argue that the universe is not clockwork on the macro or any other level. Are you familiar with chaos theory, and what is called the butterfly effect? For instance, we cannot predict the weather with any accuracy. Weather models have shown that nearly infinitely small differences in initial conditions produce wildly different results. So too with the universe. This or that random happening will produce utterly different end states. Linear events are predictable; non-linear events - and that's most of what goes on in the universe - are not.
But these limitations are limitations of our ability to calculate the outcome based on limited accuracy of starting data, not limitations on the determinism of the phenomena involved.

The non-linear equations involved in these calculations are deterministic, but a mathematically rigorous application of them requires the use of the "real number" system, and therefore requires infinite precision in order to get the "true" values. The best we can do is to use limited precision (rational numbers) in making our calculations, and this is where the difference comes in as a practical matter. This is the calculation problem that was first popularized in recent times by Edward Lorenz (although Jacques Hadamard had described mathematical systems with this property much earlier). See wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lorenz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Hadamard

Note that Lorenz's seminal work on Chaos still refers to "Deterministic Nonperiodic Flow" (popularized as the Butterfly Effect) . The existence of Chaos does not eliminate determinism. Hadamard's mathematical formulation discusses Well-posed Problems vs. Ill-posed problems, and considers the possibility of sensitivity to initial conditions as well as the data representation problems (real vs. rational, continuous vs. discrete) that I mentioned above.

Nevertheless, there is a physical analogue to the calculation problem, in that small differences can produce widely divergent results, as you noted, but this is not due to non-determinism but due to amplification of these differences through various physical mechanisms such as feedback. (These feedback mechanisms are what are modeled by non-linear equations such as Lorenz's weather model as well as simple systems like the logistic equation Xn = Xn-1(1-Xn-1), which is popular in population modeling.)

This is fundamentally different from quantum uncertainty, (especially under the Copenhagen interpretion put forth by Niels Bohr and others. Don't even ask about the EPR paradox!)

As to the original question, do we have free will?

I maintain a frame of mind in which I believe that I have free will, but this could be an illusion.

So it goes.

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Post by Jnyusa »

Brian wrote:This is fundamentally different from quantum uncertainty, (especially under the Copenhagen interpretion put forth by Niels Bohr and others. Don't even ask about the EPR paradox!)
They are definitionally unrelated but I'm not sure sure that they are theoretically unrelated.

We have to remember that the probability mass functions used to calculate correlation in the EPR experiments are mathematical abstractions from frequency distributions observed in real life. "Random" is simply the word we use to describe the uncertainty imposed by our inability (both practical and theoretical) to take infinite measurements.

There are 'sections' of chaotic distributions that could be approximated by probability mass functions, and the appearance of the phenomena represented by those 'sections' would look random to us because the 'sections' are not filled out sequentially; rather, the recursive equations spit out those values at seemingly disparate intervals and they only cohere to reveal a certain shape after tens of thousands of them have been generated.

I think it possible that chaos theory will be linked to QM eventually and that this will move us toward an answer to the locality question, or at least make QM look a little less weird. Things that should not be correlated but are correlated in QM might turn out to be governed by some underlying chaotic function.

Pure speculation, of course. Don't ask me what that function would look like!

It strikes me as mildly ironic that when a probabilistic theory in physics finally gains wide acceptance, some other theory in physics causes us to question our understanding of probability theory. :P

Also, it might continue to be more efficient to treat quantum phenomena stochastically because precise determination of initial conditions would be too costly ... but at least we wouldn't need to posit 'many worlds' to account for unrealized probabilities. It might be that the models would continue to express likelihoods while recognizing that in the 'real world' only one outcome would be truly possible. The mathematician would give the little photon the illusion of free will. ;)



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