Pope John Paul II swooning thread

[truehobbit]

I don't think swimming against the tide should be confused with being right.

If you are right, then you may have to swim against the tide.

Yes, I think that's correct.

Hmmh, probably not quite in keeping with the thread topic, but I like the all-male priesthood. I like my service to look and feel "right". "Right" mostly being the way I've grown up seeing it. Women move differently from men, no matter how they train. Their presence is completely different. I've seen women priests in Protestant and Ecumenical services. I can't help it, but I find seeing a woman performing the rites just all wrong.
Of course, "right" also means traditional music and other things that are too often neglected these days for my taste.

I'm thrilled that so many young people are so enthusiastically Catholic, but I also hope that they won't let their enthusiasm carry them away beyond reason. (Don't really think there's much reason to fear that in the first place though - at least I haven't yet heard of enthusiasm being carried too far.)

[Primula Baggins]

Women leading church services is something one can get used to. It seemed odd to me, too, as a teenager, the first time I ever saw a female ordained minister give Communion, but now a generation later, it's perfectly fitting. Lutheran seminaries are now more than half female.

I'm not arguing about what Catholics should do or want for their church. Just saying there's nothing so inherently weird about women leading in church.

[Sunsilver]

John Paul II is my hero, because I firmly believe, that without his help, Poland and much of Europe would still be Communist, and the Berlin wall would still be standing. He alone gave the Poles the support and courage they needed to bring an end to the Communist regime.

A great man indeed, and a very courageous one.

(I'm Anglican, btw, not Catholic.)

[nerdanel]

Re: women as religious leaders - Okay, I'll start a separate thread so as not to osgiliate this one.

[truehobbit]

Prim, I guess I've just never seen the need.
I wouldn't exactly know what "inherently weird" is anyway.

What I think would be interesting would be to see if Catholics are generally more inclined to be ok with it. So far it does indeed seem that only non-Catholics prefer non-genderised priesthood.

But again that's not subject of the thread.

Nel, that would be interesting, esp if we could look at different religions. (Though I can foresee an arduous subject there, and would probably stay out of it myself. )

Sunny, that is a very interesting assessment!
I couldn't tell either way, but I'd like to hear more about it!

[Sunsilver]

TH, I think a lot of what he did happened behind the scenes. Publically, however, he did visit the shipyards in Poland during the general Solidarity strike, and met with Walesa, and other key leaders to show his support.

After that, I think the U.S.S.R. were afraid to use violence against the strikers, because they would have had the wrath of millions of Catholics to deal with. (Not to mention that Poland is very predominantly Catholic...)

I remember the Wall going up.

I remember people being killed trying to cross it.

I remember Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech.

And, I will NEVER forget, if I live to be 100, the great celebration of the fall of the wall, which concluded with Jessie Elvyn singing "Amazing Grace" while standing on the top of the Brandenburg Gate!

I'm getting misty-eyed just THINKING about it! [sniff!]

It would be interesting to read a historian's account of the events. Living in North America, I probably missed many of the key steps in the process, as country after country freed itself of the Communist yoke. Poland was the first, however, and I very firmly believe the Pope's support was vital in preventing bloodshed and armed intervention. Don't think he has that sort of power? Read Morris West's papal trilogy! I know it's fiction, but having been a priest, West does write with an insider's viewpoint and understanding.

[truehobbit]

Sunny, it's amazing how much more intensely you feel about the fall of the wall than I do!

Yes, the reason I asked for more info was because I couldn't think of any direct action that would have led to the downfall of Eastern European Communism, but I think you have a good point that simply the influence, the support he gave would have had great effect not only on the spirit of the people, but also on the decisions of those in power about what they could and could not do.
I do think he has that sort of power.

If I may quote from "Salt of the Earth" again (I've just done so in nel's thread - hey, I'm enjoying the book! ), actually from the same topic, which was the common view that the Church is an instrument of suppression:

"Firstly it was especially in suppressive systems that it showed that the Church could not be conformed into a unified world-view, that she remains a counter-weight and a world-wide community, working against suppression. The 20th century has shown in unprecedented ways that this community, the Church, is an influence against all worldly, political and economical mechanisms of suppression and uniformation; she gives people a place of freedom and, in a way, puts a final limit to suppression.
..."

[Sunsilver]

Oy! How could you NOT feel emotional about your country being re-united after all those years?

I grew up during the Cold War years, and can remember sitting tensely by the radio during the Cuban Missile crisis, scared half to death that Castro was going to push a button and start WWIII. It was an immense relief to me to have that threat removed, at least from Europe. (Castro is still alive, but not much of a threat anymore.)

Interestingly enough, I have a friend who was born in Germany who couldn't get all that excited about the reunification either. She said that the countries had been separated too long, and there was too much of a difference between the East and the West for them to be comfortable living together.

I hope that has faded now, as the years have passed.

[MithLuin]

If you are interested in JPII's actions and their influence on the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, definately check out Weigel's Witness to Hope. It is well researched, though of course he was intentionally looking at it from the angle of the papacy (and Poland).

What you have to understand is that without JPII, there would not have been any Solidarity .

When JPII was elected pope, he pretty much immediately started trying to figure out how and when he could visit his country. The communist leaders couldn't say "no" indefinately - since he was a Polish pope, he would have to be allowed to visit Poland! So he did...

He asked to come for May 8, 1979, the 900th anniversary of the martyrdom of St. Stanislaw. St. Stanislaw had been bishop of Krakow, and had died resisting state power. Before his election as pope, Karol Wojtyla had been bishop of Krakow....so the Communists weren't about to allow that "connection."

Instead, he was allowed to come for 9 days in June (so the Polish Church happily put off the celebration for a month to wait for him).

He visited Warsaw, Gniezno, Czestochowa, Krakow, as well as his hometown (Wadowice) and Auschwitz.

This is what the Communist Party had to say about him before he arrived:

The Pope is our enemy.... Due to his uncommon skills and great sense of humor he is dangerous, because he charms everyone, especially journalists. Besides, he goes for cheap gestures in his relations with the crowd, for instance, puts on a highlander's hat, shakes all hands, kisses children, etc. ... It is modeled on American presidential campaigns. ...
He is dangerous, because he will make St. Stanislaw the patron of the oppostion to the authorities and a defender of human rights. Luckily we managed to maneuver him out of the date May 8. ... Because of the activation of the Church in Poland our activities designed to atheize the youth not only cannot diminish but must intensely develop. ... In this respect all means are allowed and we cannot afford any sentiments.

He ended up taking the entire nation on a nine-day, Pentecost-themed pilgrimage. 13 million of the people of Poland (1/3 the population) saw him "live," in person. For those who were not present, there was the radio and the television (the state media covered most of the papal events).

What did he offer them? Dignity. He reaffirmed their culture, reaffirmed the worth and meaning of their lives, gave them hope and spoke of their future...he spoke of freedom, as well. He spoke of sacrifice, and solidarity, and challenged people to examine the way they were living.

In November 1979, the KGB began investigating what it could do to foil the plans of JPII.

Solidarnosc began in August 1980.

In May 1981, a Turkish assassin (thought to be in the pay of the KGB) shot JPII twice at close range in St. Peter's Square.
He also played an indirect role in the much later revolution in Czechloslovakia.

[MithLuin]

Well, it is once again the anniversary of JPII's death. He died on April 2nd, but that year, it was the eve of the Feast of Divine Mercy...which is today. So, I will probably always consider the first Sunday after Easter as "his" feast day, even if it doesn't usually fall on the right date. He was the one who canonized St. Faustina, and instituted the feast of Divine Mercy, so I think it very appropriate for him (just as the feast of the Transfiguration was so important to Pope Paul VI).

I wanted to share one of his poems with people here, and thought it was appropriate for today, when the gospel reading mentions the idea of binding and loosing.

I want to describe the Church, my Church,
born with me, not dying with me -
nor do I die with it,
which always grows beyond me -
the Church: the lowest depth of my existence
and its peak,
the Church - the root which I thrust into
the past and the future alike,
the sacrament of my being in God
who is the Father.

I want to describe the Church,
my Church which bound itself to my land
(this was said: "Whatever you bind on earth
will be bound in heaven"),
thus to my land my Church is bound.
The land lies in the Vistula basin, the tributaries swell in spring
when the snows thaw in the Carpathians.
The Church bound itself to my land so that all it binds here
should be bound in heaven.


There was a man; through him my land saw it was bound to heaven.
There was such a man, there were such people, such always are -
Through them the earth sees itself in the sacrament
of a new existence. It is a fatherland,
for here the Father's house is begotten and here is born.
I want to describe my Church in the man whose name was Stanislaus.
And King Boleslaus wrote this name with his sword in the ancient chronicles,
wrote this name with his sword on the cathedral's
marble floor
as the streams of blood were flowing
over the marble floor.


I want to describe the Church in the name
which baptized the nation again
with the baptism of blood,
that it might later pass through the baptism of other trials,
through the baptism of desires wher the hidden is revealed -
the breath of the Spirit;
and in the name which was grafted
on the soil of human freedom earlier than the name
Stanislaus.


At that moment, the Body and the Blood being born
on the soil of human freedom were slashed by the king's sword
to the marrow of the priest's word,
slashed at the base of the skull, the living trunk slashed.
The Body and the Blood as yet hardly born,
when the sword struck the metal chalice, and the wheaten bread.


The King may have though: the Church shall not yet be born from you,
the nation shall not be born of the word that castigates
the body and the blood;
it will be born of the sword, my sword which severs
your words in midflow,
born from the spilled blood - this the King may have thought.
The hidden breath of the Spirit will unify all -
the severed words and the sword, the smashed skull
and the hands dripping with blood - and it says:
go into the future together, nothing shall separate you.
I want to describe my Church in which, for centuries,
the word and the blood go side by side,
united by the hidden breath
of the Spirit.


Stanislaus may have thought: my word will hurt you
and convert,
you will come as a penitent to the cathedral gate,
emaciated by fasting, enlightened by a voice within,
to join the Lord's table like a prodigal son.
If the word did not convert you, the blood will.

The bishop had perhaps no time to think:
let this cup pass from me.


A sword falls on the soil of our freedom.
Blood falls on the soil of our freedom,
And which weighs more?

The first age is at a close,
The second begins.
We take in our hands the outline of the inevitable time.

It has been said that no one would read his poetry if he had not become pope . But, what do you think? I think poetry is always difficult in translation, but it seemed to fit well enough for today.

[Lurker]

I'm not a poetry buff myself, but I think its very approriate.

We celebrated the Feast of the Divine Mercy as well and had small get together at the church basement, potluck style. I was busy so ended up just bringing ham and Princess cooked her spaghetti and meat balls. In fact, I must admit I almost forgot that it was at 3:00 p.m. I just hit my head in the sack when Princess called out we will be late for church. I go, what for? She goes, Have you forgotten already?

Which also reminds me two years ago around this time we attend JPII's funeral, can't believe it's been two years. I took out the photo album and looked at the pics, it brought back really good memories.

[solicitr]

Poland was the first, however, and I very firmly believe the Pope's support was vital in preventing bloodshed and armed intervention. Don't think he has that sort of power?

I remember at that very time recalling, with irony, Stalin's sneer, "How many divisions does the Pope have?"

I hope you're enjoying the ash-heap of history, Uncle Joe.