It is currently Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:45 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:02 am 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 14013
Location: Out on the banks
http://www.scientificamerican.com/edito ... -klingons/

An interview with the author of the book that raises an interesting theological point.
Quote:
Now that researchers have discovered more than 1,500 exoplanets beyond the solar system, the day when scientists detect signs of life on one of them may be near at hand. Given this new urgency, Vanderbilt University astronomer David Weintraub decided to find out what the world’s religions had to say on the question of aliens. In his new book, Religions and Extraterrestrial Life: How Will We Deal with It? (Springer Praxis Books, 2014), Weintraub investigates the implications of life beyond Earth on more than two dozen faiths. Scientific American spoke to him about his findings, including whether Jesus saved the Klingons as well as humanity.

_________________
Image
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”

- Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:18 am 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
Quote:
There are some people who claim that if God had created extraterrestrials, then there clearly would be words in the Old and New testaments, which we would have already found, that would have said explicitly that God created extraterrestrials—and since those words don’t exist, there can’t be. Well, there’s nothing in the Old and New testaments that talks about telephones either, and telephones do seem to exist.


I remember speaking with a person from a small church who said they had only a capella music because other instruments they might use were not in the Bible. If I'd been quicker on my toes I'd have said, excuse me, but linoleum? central heat? electric lights? English?

C.S. Lewis's sci fi trilogy explores the idea of a Garden of Eden with no snake, and a Garden of Eden in which Eve said "no".

_________________
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:39 am 
Online
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39427
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I got in some fierce arguments about this very point with Mrs. Michael, my sixth-grade Sunday School teacher. She was a purse-lipped literalist in an increasingly liberal church whose pastor was my liberal anti-war Democrat-voting somewhat long-haired father. The year was 1970. . . . Where I stepped over the line into "Burn her!" heresy was when I argued that the Bible was written in and about the world that the people who wrote it understood, and that we shouldn't look to it for guidance about anything that was unknown at the time. I stepped over the line because I failed to agree that God wrote the Bible, and therefore anything it doesn't cover can't be true. She actually went to my dad. Who said, "My daughter knows what she's talking about."

I do believe in God, and I believe in a universe full of life. What God does about all those other planets is up to God. Our job is to be just and compassionate where we're planted.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:37 pm 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
Wise Prim wrote:
Our job is to be just and compassionate where we're planted.
. Now if only we all had the same definition of "just".

_________________
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:33 pm 
Online
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39427
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
It's hard to misuse the concept of justice if it's yoked to compassion. It can't mean "revenge" if you are also expected to forgive.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:52 pm 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
I expect it's slightly different under Sharia Law.

_________________
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:51 am 
Online
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39427
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Yes, of course. But all that's under my individual control is how I act. That other people might act differently doesn't change what I believe is expected of me.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:37 pm 
Offline
Lali Beag Bídeach
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm
Posts: 13505
Location: Rivendell
I've never had a problem with this idea, and I can remember contemplating it as a very small child, outside of church and during church. (Baptist ministers are long-winded, which leaves lots of time for mind-wandering; they are not, alas, like Catholic priests who believe in 15-minute homilies.) In any case, I figured there were several possibilities.

For us, God created earth and decided to run this particular scenario here that we have: Adam, Eve, original sin (Catholics aren't the only ones who believe that. Not sure why the author makes it seem that way in the interview. :scratch: ), Jesus died for our sins and rose again. But this is not to say that he had to have all of the same things happen with another group of beings. Perhaps their story unfolded differently. Perhaps they're perfect and their "Adam and Eve" resisted temptation and never disobeyed God. Maybe Jesus was able to exist in their worlds at the same time as our world and was only crucified once. (Interdimensional Jesus!) Or maybe God decided to work their salvation out an entirely different way.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:48 pm 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5909
Location: Deep in Oz
Lali, you are an astonishingly wonderful person [/aside]

---------------------------------
Pardon my typos - tiny phone keyboard probs.

_________________
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:07 pm 
Offline
Reads while walking
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:05 pm
Posts: 4638
One of the first science fiction stories I read was about astronauts visiting some other planet and finding a variant on the Manger scene happening and saying, "So this is how it happened here!"

(Don't remember the title or author of that story, of course, but it might be from that book that warped my mind thoroughly, called something like EVERY BOY'S BOOK OF SCIENCE FICTION STORIES or something. From the fifties??)

ETA: Okay, wow, the internet is amazing. The book was EVERY BOY'S BOOK OF OUTER SPACE STORIES (1960), and I'm pretty sure the particular story was "Star of Wonder" by Julian May--who turns out to have been a woman!!

Now I've got to keep googling, because another story in that collection dug itself into my marrow and has lurked there forever, making me shiver from time to time.....

_________________
“Wilbur never forgot Charlotte. Although he loved her children and grandchildren dearly, none of the new spiders ever quite took her place in his heart. She was in a class by herself. It is not often that someone comes along who is a true friend and a good writer. Charlotte was both.” E. B. White, who must have had vison in mind. There's a reason why we kept putting the extra i in her name in our minds!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:01 am 
Offline
Lali Beag Bídeach
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm
Posts: 13505
Location: Rivendell
Oh, I love when I find out stuff like that, Teremia! Keep us posted. :)

Impy, :oops: Thank you (I think).

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:38 am 
Offline
Elvendork
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:46 pm
Posts: 1744
Location: The Shire
Lalaith wrote:
For us, God created earth and decided to run this particular scenario here that we have: Adam, Eve, original sin (Catholics aren't the only ones who believe that. Not sure why the author makes it seem that way in the interview. :scratch: ), Jesus died for our sins and rose again. But this is not to say that he had to have all of the same things happen with another group of beings. Perhaps their story unfolded differently. Perhaps they're perfect and their "Adam and Eve" resisted temptation and never disobeyed God. Maybe Jesus was able to exist in their worlds at the same time as our world and was only crucified once. (Interdimensional Jesus!) Or maybe God decided to work their salvation out an entirely different way.


C.S. Lewis was on the same page as you. 8) :)

It's a great big mysterious wonderful universe out there.

_________________
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:39 am 
Offline
Just Keep Singin'
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 4649
Location: Boston, MA
Anyone remember the Star Trek Original Series episode called "Bread and Circuses?" IN search of the crew and captain ofa missing ship, they beam down to a planet that is similar to the Roman Empire, only with 20th century technology and find that the "Romans" are persecuting the "Sun Worshippers" who believe in a philosophy of love and brotherhood. The former starship captain (Merik) has become a Roman sympathiser and Kirk, McCoy and Spock are sentenced to die in the arena at the hands of the Gladiators. They become friendly with Flavius, a former gladiator who now is one of the "Children of the Sun."

It all goes as expected - Kirk gets laid, Spock gets logical, McCoy proves he can't fight to save his life and Scotty saves the day with benign technology. There is mayhem and chaos. Then former captain Merik has a change of heart and manages to sneak Kirk a phaser before everything goes completely to hell.

Back on the ship, there is this exchange (one of the times Uhura totally pwns everybody!)

MCCOY: Captain, I see on your report Flavius was killed. I am sorry. I liked that huge sun worshiper.
SPOCK: I wish we could have examined that belief of his more closely. It seems illogical for a sun worshiper to develop a philosophy of total brotherhood. Sun worship is usually a primitive superstition religion.
UHURA: I'm afraid you have it all wrong, Mister Spock, all of you. I've been monitoring some of their old-style radio waves, the empire spokesman trying to ridicule their religion. But he couldn't. Don't you understand? It's not the sun up in the sky. It's the Son of God.
KIRK: Caesar and Christ. They had them both. And the word is spreading only now.
MCCOY: A philosophy of total love and total brotherhood.
SPOCK: It will replace their imperial Rome, but it will happen in their twentieth century.
KIRK: Wouldn't it be something to watch, to be a part of? To see it happen all over again? Mister Chekov, take us out of orbit. Ahead warp factor one.
CHEKOV: Aye, sir.


One of my all-time favourite ST-TOS episodes...along with "Who Mourns for Adonis" which also had to do with religion.

_________________
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:15 pm 
Offline
Lali Beag Bídeach
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm
Posts: 13505
Location: Rivendell
Jewel, I'd forgotten about that one! That is a great episode.

Quote:
It's a great big mysterious wonderful universe out there.


Agreed!

I wonder if the author of this article doesn't give enough credit to Christians in general. I'm not so sure that Evangelicals, as a group, would be as thrown for a loop as the author thinks. Fundamentalists, perhaps yes. But, then again, though I attend an Evangelical church I don't consider myself an Evangelical, so what do I know?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 1052
Well, Ken Ham has come out and said that there can't be life out there, and if there was it certainly wouldn't be saved.

If we find a common religion, adherents of that faith would no doubt say it is proof. Non-adherents would borrow from Stargate SG-1 and insist it is evidence of early alien visits.

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:08 am 
Offline
Lali Beag Bídeach
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm
Posts: 13505
Location: Rivendell
Ken Ham thinks he has all the answers. Just ask him. Although, I suspect God thinks differently about that subject. :suspicious:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 1052
Primula Baggins wrote:
I stepped over the line because I failed to agree that God wrote the Bible, and therefore anything it doesn't cover can't be true.


I find that attitude funny, because when I open my copy of the Bible to page one, Genesis one, Chapter one, it says that Moses wrote it. Is your teacher saying that the Bible is wrong about who wrote the Bible?

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:04 am 
Online
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39427
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I taught Sunday school for ten damn years.

Don’t tell me what I meant.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:41 pm 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5909
Location: Deep in Oz
Moses was amanuensis according to the tradition of my people.

_________________
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:01 pm
Posts: 1052
Primula Baggins wrote:
I taught Sunday school for ten damn years.

Don’t tell me what I meant.


Okay...

_________________
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group