The Devil

Post by **halplm** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:00 pm

Thoughts, opinions? Is he active in the world? Are people bad enough on their own? What's his goals, or is he even there?

Post by **yovargas** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:09 pm

Post by **Whistler** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:42 pm

Hal, we tend to discourage these poll-like "What do you think?" threads and prefer that the thread starter begin by making the case for his own opinion, after which others are invited to comment.

Since we already know that you have a strong opinion on this matter, it would be better to state it outright and get the conversation off to a rolling start. Otherwise people tend to feel that you're setting them up for something, and that actually makes them less likely to post.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:47 pm

Oh.
My.
Flipping.
Nora.

Well, whatever Satan, or 'the satan', or 'the accuser', may be, I don't believe he or it is a power equal to God. Cuz that's dualism, and Christians aren't dualists. They believe that God is sovereign and that the evil power in the universe is a fallen power, but it's not a power equal to God.

Here's where I turn to Tolkien, because I so like his philosophical take on evil, i.e. evil, however potent it is, is merely the absence of good. I'm thinking of that powerful quote from Frodo when he says to Sam that the Dark Lord cannot create anything of his own, he can only take what is good and corrupt it.

Simple but brilliant. And profoundly Augustinian.

Hama used to post about Tolkien's Boethian view of evil.

Do I think there are dark powers at work in our world, Hal? - actually, yes, I do. Some of them are external, some of them internal.

Do I believe their existence robs us of personal responsibility and accountability? - Heck, no.

Is that the sort of answer you were looking for?

PS. Have you ever read CS Lewis's cosmic trilogy?

Yes, it is a pertinent question.

Post by **yovargas** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:48 pm

Whistler wrote:Otherwise people tend to feel that you're setting them up for something, and that actually makes them less likely to post.

Really?

*looks at his currently-17-page Hell thread*

What makes you say that?

Post by **Whistler** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:51 pm

The devil made me do it.

Post by **Pearly Di** » Wed May 03, 2006 3:52 pm

Boys, boys.

Wed May 03, 2006 4:10 pm

Whistler wrote:Hal, we tend to discourage these poll-like "What do you think?" threads and prefer that the thread starter begin by making the case for his own opinion, after which others are invited to comment.

Thank you for saying this, Whistler. This is true. It helps to set a foundation for the discussion, which I think not only encourages discourse but also helps avoid misunderstanding down the road.

Obviously, its not a 'policy' that we are going to try to 'enforce' but we request that people be mindful of this general principle. Usually, when people are interested enough in a particular subject to start a thread about it, they have some thoughts about it. At the very least, it is courteous to share at least some of those thoughts when starting a thread, and it certainly helps to get the discussion going.

That having all been said, my personal view of "the devil" is rooted in the Book of Job. Satan, you will recall, has to ask God's permission to do all those bad things to Job. It is my believe that everything has its ultimate source in God - both Good and Evil. I believe further that the one can not exist without the other. That is the role that "the Devil" plays, for without him, there could be no Good in the world

Post by **ToshoftheWuffingas** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:18 pm

What we do is our own responsibility. Blaming evil on a mythological figure is just a way of saying that bad things are not our own fault. Moreover it easily slips into demonology with exorcisms and accusing people of being possessed and using that as an excuse to mistreat them.

Post by **axordil** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:21 pm

It's not at all certain that the bar-bet buddy described in Job is at all related to the shadowy figure Jesus is tempted by, or the serpent in the Eden story. The devil lacks a cohesive narrative in scripture, and in its absence, numerous narratives have been created for him...Dante and Milton being the most obvious literary examples.

Wed May 03, 2006 4:31 pm

I don't believe in god, so there is no reason for me to believe in a devil. My opinion on the matter is closer to tosh's. I don't see good and evil as two actual forces in this universe. They are man-made creations to describe our motivations for actions. The universe itself is neutral.

Does the devil have a pitchfork and make you do evil things? No, you do those all on your own, but then ascribe them to the devil to justify your actions.

Lucifer was the angel who question god's authority. The only reason lucifer is considered evil is because god is considered good. I see no reason to believe that god is good to begin with.

Post by **Faramond** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:50 pm

Voronwë: It is my believe that everything has its ultimate source in God - both Good and Evil. I believe further that the one can not exist without the other.

I don't think Good needs Evil to exist, unless you look at it from a practical standpoint. What I mean by that is I think Free Will is a part of Good, and Evil for all practical purposes will result from Free Will. But, to badly steal a phrase of dirtnap's from another thread, I don't think Evil is part of the ground of existence. What is the ground of existence? At this moment it's whatever you understand that metaphor to mean.

TheED: I don't see good and evil as two actual forces in this universe.

I agree, if by a force we mean something that causes good or bad events to happen in ordinary life. But I see Good as a force in, well, a spiritual sense. To change a person's perspective, which is a lame way of putting it.

I'm not sure how to explain this for the moment.

Di: Yes, I've read Lewis's cosmic trilogy, though I always heard it called the space trilogy.

Post by **Teremia** » Wed May 03, 2006 4:53 pm

That Calvin and Hobbes cartoon speaks my mind on the matter!

People do some entirely terrible things. Devil not necessary. On the other hand, they can also be heartbreakingly kind.

"There was a little girl
who had a little curl
right in the middle of her forehead.
And when she was good,
she was very very good,
but when she was bad, she was horrid!"

That's People, I'm afraid!

Post by **axordil** » Wed May 03, 2006 5:00 pm

TED--

But then, if you don't believe in God, the question of goodness is somewhat moot, is it not?

Speaking as someone who once was Christian, back in my believing days I had trouble reconciling the notion of a omniscient and supreme being with a hierarchy of other spiritual beings, whether in his service or fallen from it. It smacked of humanity imposing its own (now archaic) social structure on the divine, or of external pantheistic influences. Why would an omniscient being need helpers, messengers, et al? It seemed like an unnecessary complication, and one that invited doubt. If God needed something done, there was nothing, by definition, that God could not do directly.

So why use angels to do things? Because he was busy? How can an ominpotoent being be busy? Because humans couldn't handle direct contact with the divine? There were accounts where they clearly DID, without intermediaries. Angels were clearly superfluous, they felt like an echo of animism...and yet there they were in scripture.

spelling edit

Wed May 03, 2006 5:37 pm

But then, if you don't believe in God, the question of goodness is somewhat moot, is it not?

Touche.

Post by **Maria** » Wed May 03, 2006 7:42 pm

I much prefer religions that deny the existance of a Devil and/or Hell. Everything is just nicer that way.

Post by **Whistler** » Wed May 03, 2006 7:45 pm

Post by **Holbytla** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:02 am

I believe names like god and the devil are just that. Names.
I believe we can't conceive many of the mysteries in this universe, and give them names and attributes to satisfy our ignorance.
We are ill equipped to understand such things.

To once again quote Douglas Adams;
"The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination."

So too will entities like the devil and God fit poorly.
We have instincts and can sense good and bad in relation to our well being, but to even begin to understand that which is beyond our earthly reach is futile.

Boy have I been crabby lately. So pessimistic and cynical.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:12 am

Post by **The Watcher** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:17 am

Holbytla wrote:I believe names like god and the devil are just that. Names.
I believe we can't conceive many of the mysteries in this universe, and give them names and attributes to satisfy our ignorance.
We are ill equipped to understand such things.

To once again quote Douglas Adams;
"The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination."

So too will entities like the devil and God fit poorly.
We have instincts and can sense good and bad in relation to our well being, but to even begin to understand that which is beyond our earthly reach is futile.

Boy have I been crabby lately. So pessimistic and cynical.

I don't see it. I would post something much in the same general train of thought and mean it most sincerely.

But, in my case, I truly do not believe that there is any "incarnate" form of evil itself. There certainly is an awareness of evil, but I think it comes from ourselves.