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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:02 am 
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Lali Beag Bídeach
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INTPs rule the world, theoretically. We can't really be bothered with all of that, though. We'll just let the INTJs do it.

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Last edited by Lalaith on Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:19 am 
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halo optional
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Oh, yeah. Y'all sure could rule lots of stuff, if you could just get yourselves organized.

Luckily, we "J"s aren't too worried. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:50 am 
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Jewel, I think I've seen you post and highlight that same verbiage about an INFJ before, about "knowing they are right". You seem to really identify with this tidbit. :) I, unfortunately, cannot... one of the most accurate statements made about me lately (from my point of view, anyway) is that I don't HAVE to be right. The whole quote was something like: "I like to work with you on projects, because you are always invested in finding the best fit for the group. Unlike a lot of leaders, you don't have to be right".

I like to organize things, too, but not because I know I am right. I like to do it because I am naturally organized, I like to advance projects and help people get to their (or "our" collective) goal(s), and I can help find... through mediation and organization of goals and priorities... I can usually help find a pretty good "best fit" for the group. I'm not good at conflict, and since overt conflict can hinder a group from reaching its goals, I will try to diffuse strong conflict and work around it. (Disagreements and debate, however, are GREAT for finding answers to issues!)

Find that common ground, that's me, and define common goals. It's not about being right, it's about finding the best answer... for everyone. Most people in the group wouldn't even know what I personally thought the best idea was. Interestingly, most people don't ask. :)

Plus, I *never* have a messy desk. :P




So... the part of INFJ that you highlighted doesn't fit me at all, at least I don't think so. So I looked at the rest of the link you posted. This part (from the same article) really rang out to me:

Quote:
INFJs have uncanny insight into people and situations. They get "feelings" about things and intuitively understand them. As an extreme example, some INFJs report experiences of a psychic nature, such as getting strong feelings about there being a problem with a loved one, and discovering later that they were in a car accident. This is the sort of thing that other types may scorn and scoff at, and the INFJ themself does not really understand their intuition at a level which can be verbalized. Consequently, most INFJs are protective of their inner selves, sharing only what they choose to share when they choose to share it. They are deep, complex individuals, who are quite private and typically difficult to understand. INFJs hold back part of themselves, and can be secretive.

But the INFJ is as genuinely warm as they are complex. INFJs hold a special place in the heart of people who they are close to, who are able to see their special gifts and depth of caring. INFJs are concerned for people's feelings, and try to be gentle to avoid hurting anyone. They are very sensitive to conflict, and cannot tolerate it very well. Situations which are charged with conflict may drive the normally peaceful INFJ into a state of agitation or charged anger. They may tend to internalize conflict into their bodies, and experience health problems when under a lot of stress.



I'm not too sure about the "psychic" stuff, but I think strong empathy can seem psychic, sometimes. People do give clues as to what is going on inside, if one just waits and is quiet and tunes in.

SO.... all of that (it is SO fun to talk about oneself, yessirree bob) to say that my former comment about picking and choosing might just apply, here. Jewel and I both think we are spot-on INFJs, and yet when we read a description, we gravitate to different places. I picked one part, and Jewel picked another. And we both feel like our chosen parts fit us to a T, and so we are both quintessential INFJs.

Kinda like a horoscope. :help:

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"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:56 am 
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chocolate bearer
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At risk of changing the subject...

I had a big project due Thursday, August 7th. A co-worker needed some data from me on storm drain trash capture devices that I was mapping and calculating for her so that she could enter them into the yearly report, due at the end of August. We'd set a tentative date for me to get the info to her as Thursday, August 7th, so she'd have plenty of time to complete the report. I normally work a 4 day week, Monday thru Thursday, and I thought I could have it done by the end of my work week. I was scheduled to be gone the following week for training - I planned to take a day off Monday, then go to training Tuesday thru Friday, out of town. But I couldn't get the promised work done, so I sent the email below off to her just before I left.

"I stayed two hours late on Thursday, and came in for four hours on Monday, though it was supposed to be my day off. I was unable to finish the assignment and I have to go now to a medical appointment for my dad. Attached is what I have so far - all the existing trash devices and the raw data, not yet checked, on the pump stations, except for Arbor. I will complete the work when I get back Monday, August 18."

I walked into my office when I got back, and found a copy of my email on my chair. There was a hand written note on the email: "Welcome back! Swing by my office first thing so I can explain this. Thanks!" This note was written by my co-worker's supervisor (not my supervisor). Attached was a 19 page power point presentation, in very simplistic language, on how to make an apology.

I was so mad I was shaking. (Have you ever seen an incensed nudibranch? Tis a rare sight indeed.) After about two hours of trying to calm down, I went to his office, told him that what I had sent was a status update, not an apology, and that I knew perfectly well how to make an apology and did not need a child-level power point explanation on how to apologize. I told him I felt angry and insulted, and left before I could do anymore damage.

Today, I re-read the apology presentation, and gave a textbook apology to him. Whereupon he gave one to me, and we are now square. And perhaps he is a little more sensitive about his actions.

A synopsis of the presentation:

Be brief and present the apology face to face:

Say you apologize (better than saying you are sorry).
Say you made a mistake and take responsibility for it.
Express regret/contrition.
Describe your corrective actions.
Grovel.

What not to do:
1. Ask for credit for good intentions.
2. Be defensive.
3. Say you never expected it to be harmful.
4. Rehash the build up to the event.
5. Say "if", as in "I'm sorry if you were offended".
6. Say "I'm sorry you ...."
7. Be clever, half-hearted, or hyperbolic.
8. Avoid expressing regret - can be seen as a cold delivery.

The presentation notes:

"People may excuse themselves from the results of their actions because their intent was pure or good or well guided."

By the way, I did get the data to my co-worker on this Monday, which she was able to plug into her half-finished report.

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And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:11 am 
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I don't identify with ALL of the INTP characteristics either. I definitely live (and love) the world of theoretical possibilities, and am incessantly interested in how things can be improved. But there's a strong side of me that does feel the need to turn those theoretical possibilities into actual progress, which leads to my employment in positions that require a lot of leadership, and the ability to advance practical solutions in the near and medium term...But, and this is where Myers-Briggs is really good, the part of me that wants to put my ideas into practice is the part of me that exhausts me the most, and leads to the greatest amount of stress. In short, I'm happiest (and most calm) when creating theories and plans, and unhappiest when implementing them. It's just that my heart tells me I need to do the latter in order to be of much use to the world!


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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:28 am 
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narya,

Just my 2 cents. If someone had promised to deliver something to me by a certain date, was not able to do so, and then sent me a note similar to yours, in which there is an implicit expression of annoyance at the expectation of the work being done (i.e. the phrase "though it was supposed to be my day off"), I would certainly have been a little miffed. Given that you were going to be about a week late in delivering the promised information, an explicit apology in that email (and omission of the information about you working on your day off) would have made a world of difference. Here's a version that would have gone over much better:

Quote:
Bilbo,

Just wanted to let you know that I'll unfortunately not be able to get the full info to you by our agreed deadline (and won't likely be able to complete it until I get back on Monday, August 18). Apologies for that. I stayed two hours late on Thursday, came in for four hours on Monday, and just didn't have enough time to wrap it up (and I have to go now to a medical appointment for my dad). Attached is what I have so far - all the existing trash devices and the raw data, not yet checked, on the pump stations, except for Arbor. I will definitely complete the work when I get back on Monday, August 18.

Apologies again, and let me know if you have any questions!

Best,
Nice Nudibranch


That said, the passive aggressive and insulting response from your co-worker was completely unacceptable (and far, far more unacceptable than your status update).


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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:34 am 
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Throw me a rope.
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Thing is, I believe that one can be certain of one's actions - would do it again if placed in the same circumstances - and yet feel genuinely sorry for the consequent pain caused.
I think one can say, "I apologise for causing you pain, but I can't apologise for choosing to do what I did."

Pardon my typos - tiny phone keyboard probs.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:09 am 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Just my 2 cents. If someone had promised to deliver something to me by a certain date, was not able to do so, and then sent me a note similar to yours, in which there is an implicit expression of annoyance at the expectation of the work being done (i.e. the phrase "though it was supposed to be my day off"), I would certainly have been a little miffed. Given that you were going to be about a week late in delivering the promised information, an explicit apology in that email (and omission of the information about you working on your day off) would have made a world of difference.


I fully agree with PtB. I had a lot more to say on this topic, but I find that I am not objective because I was recently placed in a compromising situation by a coworker who was going to be "unavailable" to work on work assigned to her for a week, which placed me in the position of having to pull an all-nighter to do her work. So it is probably best to stick to PtB's thoughts.

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Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:54 am 
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anthriel wrote:

So... the part of INFJ that you highlighted doesn't fit me at all, at least I don't think so. So I looked at the rest of the link you posted. This part (from the same article) really rang out to me:

Quote:
INFJs have uncanny insight into people and situations. They get "feelings" about things and intuitively understand them. As an extreme example, some INFJs report experiences of a psychic nature, such as getting strong feelings about there being a problem with a loved one, and discovering later that they were in a car accident. This is the sort of thing that other types may scorn and scoff at, and the INFJ themself does not really understand their intuition at a level which can be verbalized. Consequently, most INFJs are protective of their inner selves, sharing only what they choose to share when they choose to share it. They are deep, complex individuals, who are quite private and typically difficult to understand. INFJs hold back part of themselves, and can be secretive.

But the INFJ is as genuinely warm as they are complex. INFJs hold a special place in the heart of people who they are close to, who are able to see their special gifts and depth of caring. INFJs are concerned for people's feelings, and try to be gentle to avoid hurting anyone. They are very sensitive to conflict, and cannot tolerate it very well. Situations which are charged with conflict may drive the normally peaceful INFJ into a state of agitation or charged anger. They may tend to internalize conflict into their bodies, and experience health problems when under a lot of stress.



I'm not too sure about the "psychic" stuff, but I think strong empathy can seem psychic, sometimes. People do give clues as to what is going on inside, if one just waits and is quiet and tunes in.

SO.... all of that (it is SO fun to talk about oneself, yessirree bob) to say that my former comment about picking and choosing might just apply, here. Jewel and I both think we are spot-on INFJs, and yet when we read a description, we gravitate to different places. I picked one part, and Jewel picked another. And we both feel like our chosen parts fit us to a T, and so we are both quintessential INFJs.

Kinda like a horoscope. :help:


Being as we're exact astrological twins, anthy, there's obviously a lot of common ground between us, personality-wise...we're both I-FJs, but I'm most definitely an S as opposed to your N, so I agree strongly with you on the empathy. Also, I do find it hard to articulate what I'm feeling, which I guess increases the I part, too!

This is from http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFJ.html

Quote:
They constantly take in information about people and situations that is personally important to them, and store it away. This tremendous store of information is usually startlingly accurate, because the ISFJ has an exceptional memory about things that are important to their value systems. It would not be uncommon for the ISFJ to remember a particular facial expression or conversation in precise detail years after the event occurred, if the situation made an impression on the ISFJ.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:12 am 
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Nel, just a :hug: in response to your edit.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:22 am 
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Passdagas the Brown wrote:
Most people I know, including my friends, are convinced I am an outright extrovert....What they don't know is that I'm mentally exhausted after all my interactions with them.


Exactly. And if I am in a situation where I can't disappear for a bit to "recharge," I become more and more stressed and uptight about everything...and am then called "anti-social!" I'd much rather hear "Where WERE you?" when I return after "hiding" for 30 minutes, then end up sitting there, becoming more and more obviously antsy and edgy.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:40 am 
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not something I would recommend
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anthriel wrote:
It's not about being right, it's about finding the best answer... for everyone.


And it's the bolded part that makes you such a quintessential NF. Any type can try and lead and organize but their styles and priorities would be different. Yours, of course, is about a natural desire to maintain or create harmony which is probably the most defining trait of the NF.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:33 pm 
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Impenitent wrote:
Thing is, I believe that one can be certain of one's actions - would do it again if placed in the same circumstances - and yet feel genuinely sorry for the consequent pain caused.
I think one can say, "I apologise for causing you pain, but I can't apologise for choosing to do what I did."

I suspect most people wouldn't have trouble with the above, but I did. My trouble initially was centered on the word 'apologize', but when considering the meanings of the concepts 'sorry' and 'regret', I ended up concluding that I had to isolate and renounce some aspect of the not-regretted act in order for the apology to make sense to me. I concluded that my offense was in the manner of my action, rather than in the fact of it. For me, there must be a wrong acknowledged if there's to be an apology or regret expressed; those concepts must attach to something done or they are without meaning to me. I don't say this has to be true for everyone. I wonder if this is the manifestation of the strong TJ?

I note that in the M-B construct (if I've understood correctly), there can be no configuration where T and J predominate. This is the part I had trouble understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:47 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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It's more a strong NT thing - the great priority that you put on logic and principle and accuracy of meaning are very typical of strong NTs (and I say that as a strong NT). Rational, logical truth are so important to you that it can become uncomfortable to act against that truth. Types that put top priority on harmony or order would typically have less issue with doing that.


As a general point, I find it much more useful to pay attention to the 4 core types - NT, NF, SJ, SP - than to try and figure out thing by individual letter. IMO, it's better to start by looking at the broad description of those 4 types and see which suites you best instead of trying go letter by letter.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Thank you yov; that is a very helpful pointer.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:49 pm 
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In response to Nel's and PtG's comments, I feel the need to defend myself. My co-worker is a very volatile person who gets angry with people on a regular basis, including me. I see it as her personality, and let it slide. She originally asked me to help her with something that would take 4 hours to complete. As I worked on it, she came in repeatedly over the week and changed the scope, handing me new data and telling me to forget the old, and all the maps I'd prepared for the old data. By Thursday afternoon, I'd spent 20 hours on it and she again came in with changed data. I got angry, probably the first time in 8 years she's seen me angry. And said that meant I'd have to work on my day off to get it in. By the time I had to leave on Monday, it was clear I could not get all the new work done in time, so I told her. By email (she was not in the office). I put off paying a quarter million dollar contractor payment to work on her project, as well as several other commitments. I worked 30 hours on a project she said would only be 4 hours. Since I'm already over booked at work, and only get paid 36 hours per week at a lower than private sector wage, no matter how mangy hours I actually work, that's 30 hours of my own time that will have to be made up by working long days and weekends on the other work I postponed for hers. I don't feel like I owe her an apology. And I doubt if I will get one from her.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:54 pm 
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Sounds to me like you were the one due an apology, not the other way around. Not that it will ever happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:13 pm 
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narya, I've been thinking about defensiveness, but more in the abstract than as related to conduct in a professional situation such as yours. What I mean is, I wouldn't want any of my comments to be taken as advice for how to act in a professional environment; I am not currently a working professional, and am rusty on the protocols.

When I read your first post describing the incident, and began to read the text of the note you'd left, my immediate reaction was, 'Uh oh, she's really defensive.'

When I remembered what you'd related previously about that relationship in which you'd routinely been belittled and criticized, I thought it would not be surprising if you had developed a reflexive defensiveness as a general mode of reacting.

The annoying thing about defensiveness (in my experience), is that it makes the situation about oneself. One can be involved in working out a situation, but when the other person tends to be defensive, they keep dragging it back to themselves. My impulse is to say, 'Okay, whatever, this isn't about you.' It's an annoying distraction in the quest to get at the real problem.

It would be better, rather than thinking of protecting yourself from potential criticism (which tendency is totally understandable, we all do it), to focus on the other person and look at the incident from their perspective. So, my imaginings on the situation:

----------------------------------------------------------

Beth,

I didn't finish the report! How will this affect your schedule?

(Having expressed your awareness and concern for the other person, you could then go on to explain from your vantage point, so she knows you did your best.)

It wasn't for lack of trying -- I put in extra hours and cancelled a day off. That schedule seemed achievable when we settled on it. I'm sorry I didn't see this outcome sooner, so I could warn you in advance.

(You could then go on to give the details of your upcoming schedule and express solidarity about the complications ahead resulting from the missed deadline.)

--------------------------------------------------------------

The paradoxical thing about defensiveness is that it actually invites the criticism we're trying to deflect, because it indicates we believe we deserve to be criticized.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:38 pm 
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narya wrote:
In response to Nel's and PtG's comments, I feel the need to defend myself. My co-worker is a very volatile person who gets angry with people on a regular basis, including me. I see it as her personality, and let it slide. She originally asked me to help her with something that would take 4 hours to complete. As I worked on it, she came in repeatedly over the week and changed the scope, handing me new data and telling me to forget the old, and all the maps I'd prepared for the old data. By Thursday afternoon, I'd spent 20 hours on it and she again came in with changed data. I got angry, probably the first time in 8 years she's seen me angry. And said that meant I'd have to work on my day off to get it in. By the time I had to leave on Monday, it was clear I could not get all the new work done in time, so I told her. By email (she was not in the office). I put off paying a quarter million dollar contractor payment to work on her project, as well as several other commitments. I worked 30 hours on a project she said would only be 4 hours.


This definitely changes the issue. With these additional facts, she sounds incompetent, disrespectful of your time, and actually the cause of the missed deadline (i.e., had she provided you with the correct data to analyze timely and given you an accurate estimate of the hours required, you would not have missed the deadline (which it now sounds like she perhaps should have adjusted much earlier based on her continuing to change the scope of the assignment.) Of course, maybe with more facts from her perspective, we'd receive a really good explanation of why that happened the way it did; who can say.

Quote:
Since I'm already over booked at work, and only get paid 36 hours per week at a lower than private sector wage, no matter how mangy hours I actually work, that's 30 hours of my own time that will have to be made up by working long days and weekends on the other work I postponed for hers. I don't feel like I owe her an apology. And I doubt if I will get one from her.


While I'm currently in the private sector, I have spent the majority of my career to date in the public sector (and am overwhelmingly likely to spend a lot more time in the public sector in the course of my overall career), so I can definitely sympathize with the frustrations of inadequate compensation. But my experience is that in my field, long days and weekends are part of what is required no matter what you are being paid, and it is generally poorly received if you assert that your "own time" is being infringed by work, even if you are receiving public sector pay. (In my last government job, I was receiving only 31-37 percent of my current salary, but the night/weekend expectations were probably only reduced by 20-30 percent despite an astonishing pay differential.) I think that that tone is part of what PtB and I picked up on and responded to originally. It sounds as though the real issue, here, is that this coworker was not respectful of your time in handing you this project piecemeal and continuing to change its scope, whether we define the time involved as "work time" or "your time." Thanks for the additional details; always amazing how they can change an assessment of the situation.

_________________
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise


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 Post subject: Re: Apologies
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Abrupt changes in project scope are often driven either by a needy client or someone with a client-facing job who tries to anticipate a needy client's needy needs. By the time the changes trickle down to where the work actually happens, it's like someone has gently rolled a blasting cap down a hill of mushy plastic explosive.

With some of my co-workers, who occupy a spot slightly above mine on the C-4 slope, I've learned simply never to start on something they've given me right away, even if it's due soon, because I will do more harm to the timeline by starting on it and then redoing it at (and past) the last second than I will just waiting for the inevitable last second changes.

Strangely, most of them are okay with that at this point, because even they know they're getting told to do things that aren't ready to be done.

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