Apologies

[Jude]

I'm late to this discussion, but...

I don't always equate being sorry with an apology. I can be sorry for things that I had absolutely nothing to do with. Example: "I was sorry to hear about your accident". Or, "I'm sorry about your loss".

When we get annoyed with public figures for their "not-apology", it's usually because we perceive them as not apologizing for something that was their fault, i.e. something they should apologize for.

So, if I could just rearrange the wording on your original question:

"Could you express sorrow for hurting someone's feelings, without apologizing for telling them the thing that hurt their feelings?"

In this, case, yes, absolutely you could.


Off-topic: as someone who reads and understands Greek, I'm going to propose that "non-apologies" should henceforth be referred to as "prologies".

[Lalaith]

So it's a question (for me) of whether expressions of concern and regret that don't qualify as apologies (because they don't acknowledge a wrong done), have a moral basis and might still be of value.

Indeed I do think these types of apologies (for lack of a better word) still have value; in fact, I think they have a great deal of value. Many people won't even catch that you're not technically apologizing. However, I typically think there is plenty of room within my actions to find something I've done to apologize for. Could I have phrased my original statement better? Less offensively? More lovingly? Did I really need to call someone out about something? Or would it have been wiser on my part to hold my tongue? Did I actually bring about any good from my actions? Or did I unintentionally cause more harm than good? People rarely appreciate being called out. I think that requires a very special type of relationship to accomplish successfully.

Not-so-Theoretical case in point:

I need to have a conversation soon with one of our pastor's wives. At least twice before, she has come to me with hurt feelings based on things I've done completely unintentionally, innocently and without any inkling that what I'd done had deeply offended and hurt her. (One time I sent her an email after she had said she didn't want to be contacted via email anymore. The problem was that she didn't communicate it quite that clearly and had made it sound like she meant that for the homeschool group we were part of. She was incredibly angry with me over this, assuming I had done this deliberately to maliciously spite her. That's how I felt about that. The other time I hadn't taken extra pains to let her know that I was going to be speaking at a women's night out event. Granted, it wasn't my event, so it wasn't my responsibility to make sure people got invited. But she felt very slighted. Remember, I can't email her, and she's not on FB. She rarely answers texts, so my options were to pick up the phone and call her or talk to her face-to-face. Anyway, neither here nor there.)

So why do I need to speak to her? I need to speak to her because I cannot get over the bad feelings I now have for her with regards to what they (she and her husband) did to Sarah by excluding her from a certain class at church. I won't get into the details, but I feel that some of this exclusion is coming out of a misunderstanding about Sarah's dyslexia. And I feel that Sarah has been unfairly treated. In any case, I've percolated on this for a few months. Why? Because I would have preferred to get over it on my own and work through all of the feelings by myself till I reached a place of peace that included peace with them. However, that's not happening; therefore, I now know the time has arrived to have a conversation. I say all of that not because I necessarily think that's the best way to handle these types of situations, but, having been on the receiving end a few times of the rebuke from a person who felt it was her duty to tell me what I'd done wrong and how I had hurt her, I can say that I don't prefer that method by a long shot. One advantage of me waiting this long to discuss the topic with her (or them, not sure yet how that's going to happen since Freddy is in the same place I am and may want to speak to them together) is that I am pretty sure I can do this quite calmly, rationally, and as dispassionately as possible.

I thinktthe idea of 'sorry', or regret, is the problem for me. It pains me to cause pain to someone I love, but if I choose to do it in spite of that, am I really 'sorry'? Can I really say I regret the suffering the baby goes through from getting the shot, if I'm willing that he get the shot? I'm not sure that is consistent, logically or ethically.

Here are some definitions of the word "sorry." I put the parts in bold that I think apply to what I and others are talking about.

1. feeling regret, compunction, sympathy, pity, etc.:
to be sorry to leave one's friends; to be sorry for a remark; to be sorry for someone in trouble.

2. regrettable or deplorable; unfortunate; tragic:
a sorry situation; to come to a sorry end.

3. sorrowful, grieved, or sad:
Was she sorry when her brother died?

4. associated with sorrow; suggestive of grief or suffering; melancholy; dismal.

5. wretched, poor, useless, or pitiful:
a sorry horse.

6. (used interjectionally as a conventional apology or expression of regret):

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This is an excellent discussion. I'm sorry, Cerin, that you are facing this real-life dilemma, but I am grateful that you started this discussion here, which I am finding most illuminating.

[Jude]

I don't want to osgiliate a serious discussion, so I'll just have some fun with you by PM:

I need to have a conversation soon with one of our pastor's wives.

So, how many wives does he have?

Doncha just love teh English language?

[Lalaith]

It's one of THOSE kinds of churches.

Let me clarify: I need to have a conversation with the wife of one of our pastors.

[Jude]

Holy swear words! I thought said that in a PM, but I just posted it!
Sorry, everybody

[yovargas]

To me, an apology takes responsibility for one's own actions, rather than expressing sympathy for another person's state of mind.

This is my view of "apology" as well but it may just be semantic - I don't think expressing sympathy for the other is at all wrong, and it may indeed be the best thing to do in a given situation, I just wouldn't call doing that an apology.

[anthriel]

Can I really say I regret the suffering the baby goes through from getting the shot, if I'm willing that he get the shot? I'm not sure that is consistent, logically or ethically.

I can without a doubt say that I would regret the suffering the baby will go through because of the shot. And yet I am very sure he needs the shot anyway. I see no inconsistency there at all.

I do think that this is a case of semantics. An apology of this sort does take responsibility for one's own actions, and expresses sympathy for another person's resultant state of mind. As Jude pointed out, "sorry" can mean a genuine regret for someone being in pain, not a direct admission "I did something wrong".

"I knew you wouldn't love hearing this, and I am sorry that you were hurt by my words, but I felt it important that you know my feelings" is not inconsistent. It's actually pretty honest.

[Cerin]

I lived with a passive aggressive man who had this pattern: I'd suffer silently about something he did on a regular basis that really bothered me (such as not bathing) but eventually I'd tell him, then he'd be insufferable to be around. After a horrible, loveless week of being pointedly shunned in front of the family, and remarked about in the third person to the dogs, I would break down and say I was sorry I brought it up and didn't really mean it, and he'd eventually deign to kiss and make up. Those apologies I eventually made expressed my genuine sorrow for having hurt him, not because of sympathy for him, but because it resulted in 10 times the pain for me.

If he apologized for his rejecting behavior it was always a stiff "I was just protecting myself and I apologize if you felt you were hurt by it".

Neither of these is a good example of an apology.

narya, that sounds awful. What dysfunctional habits we fall into with one another! I hope your situation is better now.

I'm sorry, Cerin, that you are facing this real-life dilemma, but I am grateful that you started this discussion here, which I am finding most illuminating.

And I am so grateful to have this exceptional place to come and discuss it in!


Lots to consider in your last post, Lalaith.

[Cerin]

"I knew you wouldn't love hearing this, and I am sorry that you were hurt by my words, but I felt it important that you know my feelings" is not inconsistent. It's actually pretty honest.

I'm thinking it could depend on the individual. I wouldn't try to make a case that it was empirically inconsistent (or consistent), but if it seems inconsistent to me, it's inconsistent for me. As with, if a person feels that eating meat is wrong, they shouldn't eat meat, but it doesn't mean eating meat is wrong, and that no one should eat it.

[anthriel]

"I knew you wouldn't love hearing this, and I am sorry that you were hurt by my words, but I felt it important that you know my feelings" is not inconsistent. It's actually pretty honest.

I'm thinking it could depend on the individual. I wouldn't try to make a case that it was empirically inconsistent (or consistent), but if it seems inconsistent to me, it's inconsistent for me. As with, if a person feels that eating meat is wrong, they shouldn't eat meat, but it doesn't mean eating meat is wrong, and that no one should eat it.

Well then. I think you just answered your own question.

[Lalaith]

And I suspect our personality types play a strong role in how we view this, Cerin. I am an INTP, and I rarely see things in terms of black and white or absolutes.

[anthriel]

Lali, which of the letters plays a part in seeing the grey zone? Because I would have thought it P vs J, but that is the only "letter" in which you and I differ, and I rarely see things as absolutes, either.

At least not concerning people. Thank God for science, is what I say.

[Lalaith]

I think it's the P vs. J. You're an F, though, too, right? So an INFJ? I'll bet the F affects the J to temper its absoluteness.

ETA: Or, like me, over time you've worked to "overcome" some of your natural tendencies that, perhaps, you viewed as less than desirable.

[anthriel]

I think it's the P vs. J. You're an F, though, too, right? So an INFJ? I'll bet the F affects the J to temper its absoluteness.

ETA: Or, like me, over time you've worked to "overcome" some of your natural tendencies that, perhaps, you viewed as less than desirable.

Oh, bother. You are right. I am most definitely an "F". I'm just an INTX wannabe.

Sorry for the diversion (squirrel! ). Carry on!

[Lalaith]

I'm an F wannabe. It's okay.

(And I meant to tease Jude about his non-PM PM, but I forgot. Consider yourself teased. )

That ends my shenanigans, Cerin. I am sorry.*

*Take that as you will.

[Cerin]

I just checked out these personality types. Without reading anything, but just choosing based on the meanings of the letters, I picked INTJ, and that fit quite well in several respects. When I took the test, I ended up as ISFJ, and that didn't fit at all. I then read the blurbs describing the types, and the only other one that seemed to fit was INFP, but not as well as INTJ. Do we have a thread anywhere that discusses this? It would be fun to see if my impressions of people from their posting fits their type. I would have said I was a very different type than both Lalaith and Anthriel. Can types vary quite alot with just one letter variation? I didn't bother checking any of the E types.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here's one: Myers-Briggs, redux

[anthriel]

I would say that you, Cerin, are most certainly a "T". Any test that says otherwise will have my very raised eyebrow to deal with.

And no, I wouldn't say you were anything like me and Lali either. I would guess that you are an INTJ, and I think the combination of T and J is probably key for you.

But Lord M is the real expert on this stuff. Hopefully he will weigh in!

[yovargas]

I have no doubt that you are an INTJ, Cerin. I coulda told you that without needing to take the test.

Can types vary quite alot with just one letter variation?

It depends but the middle two letters are the most significant. The difference etween N v S in particular is huge.