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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:56 pm 
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not something I would recommend
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Alatar wrote:
This is essentially a belief issue I think Lali. Speaking purely for myself, I believe the Pope is a political office, not a religious one, and that all of the "picked by God" stuff is posturing to secure the post. Historically the Pope had very good reasons to try to ensure that his position was seen as bestowed by God.

However, this is a modern world, and I think the Pope is, as I said, merely a political leader, and not "in the shoes of the Fisherman". As such, he should absolutely be able to resign. I just find it hypocritical to try to have it both ways. If God picked him, he doesn't get to unpick himself.



I gotta say.....I don't understand what it means to believe this and yet still call yourself a Catholic. I mean, if you believe the Pope and the Church are all just normal men in political offices, well, uh, doesn't that pretty much make you a Protestant?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Pope Benedict has a reputation for being a theologian and scholar. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing here.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:33 pm 
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yovargas wrote:
I gotta say.....I don't understand what it means to believe this and yet still call yourself a Catholic. I mean, if you believe the Pope and the Church are all just normal men in political offices, well, uh, doesn't that pretty much make you a Protestant?


Do Catholics believe that the Pope and the men of the Church are something other than "normal men?"

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:11 pm 
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I'm not Catholic but it's my understanding that a big part of the idea of Catholicism is that these men have a special, holy connection with God. One obvious example - Catholics confess to their priests, Protestants confess directly to God. If the priests and such weren't in some way special, Catholics could skip the "middle men" which would make them Protestants as far as I can see.

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Last edited by yovargas on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Catholics also believe that priests are called/chosen by God, and they remain priests until death. But they are allowed to retire from active service. That doesn't make them less chosen; it just means that their ministry is less public, more a matter of prayer than leadership of a congregation.

That indicates to me that there is no problem with Benedict's resignation.

John Paul II believed, though, that his frail endurance as pope sent a powerful message to the church about God's embrace and hallowing of human suffering. That's a deep theological approach, but troubling in a practical sense as far as running the church. Benedict is a very practical man and saw the impact of John Paul's long decline.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:54 am 
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I am also Catholic and I've never been happy about him as Pope for the same reasons as Alatar.

This office is a heavy burden and his resignation came only a few days after a huge scandal concerning German hospitals run by the RCC. I suspect that after dealing with the sexual abuse scandal for most of the time of his papacy, he felt that a stronger man should face the problems to come.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:43 pm 
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As a Catholic - and one educated in 12 years of Catholic schools and eight years as an altar boy - I must agree with both Alatar and Lhaewin that the latest pope has not been a good one. Sadly, the Catholic church has long ago given up an claim on moral leadership because of the pedophile scandals.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:23 am 
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Al, Nin, Lali, and Pearly Di all touch on my own view of this. Although (what ought to be) the characteristics of the Christian Church are revealed in the scriptures (notably Acts 2, 1 Tim 3, Titus 1, etc) I see the Catholic Church as an institution of man, not unlike a monarchy. According to Wiki, Vatican City is a "theocratic absolute elective monarchy."

Like Lali, I see no reason why a church leader should not resign whether appointed by God or man. Given the power the position wields, I believe it is true that God appointed Pope Benedict. However, other than by the traditions of man, there is no reason (for me) to believe that Benedict's resignation was not also ordained by God. Just because he is no longer Pope, does not mean that he is not still carrying his Cross and following Christ... I note that no Pope is mentioned at all in either testament

Like Paul imprisoned, Benedict's ministry and witness likely will continue until he dies, or the Lord take him. There are plenty of church leaders (of lesser status, but no less important in the Body of Christ) who remove themselves from office, or are removed, for a variety of reasons. That does not mean their Christian walk is over, it just means its complexion has changed.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:41 pm 
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I did a split from this thread calling the new thread Meaning of Catholism, other religions, and Christmas. If anyone thinks that their post is in the wrong thread -- or has a suggestion for a better name, let me know.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Thank you, Sir V.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:09 pm 
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There is a new Pope, as of about a minute ago (I confess to having the ChimneyCam going in the corner of my computer screen). Billowing white smoke.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:49 pm 
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As a friend of mine just texted:

Star Wars VII: A New Pope

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
There is a new Pope, as of about a minute ago (I confess to having the ChimneyCam going in the corner of my computer screen). Billowing white smoke.

That was quick.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Primula Baggins wrote:
(I confess to having the ChimneyCam going in the corner of my computer screen).


Now that is kinda cool. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:20 pm 
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The new pope is Argentina's Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the first non-European pope. I have not seen what his papal name will be.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Francisco (Francis).

He's a doctrinal conservative who believes in social justice (says Wikipedia, which already has an article). He's a Jesuit, if I read it correctly. He came in second on most of the ballots at the last conclave and finally asked people not to vote for him.

He has a degree in chemistry. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:52 pm 
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He's 76 years old. So much for new blood. The first ever Jesuit Pope. He strongly opposed Argentina's legalization of same-sex marriage, calling the new law "a scheme to destroy God's plan" and adding that it was "a real and dire anthropological throwback."

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:30 pm 
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Will the church will continue to oppose gay marriage? Is the Pope Catholic?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:35 pm 
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I don't think the question is whether or not the Church will continue to oppose gay marriage. I think the question is how much emphasis will be placed upon it.

I am cautiously optimistic that this new Pope *might* just be more concerned with ministering to the poor and the sick than with whether or not two people of the same sex get married.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Maybe I'm just a cynical old git, but I'm not optimistic at all.

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