It is currently Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:49 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:09 am 
Offline
Throw me a rope.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 5834
Location: Deep in Oz
...a taste for shrimp? :salmon:

PS Above, I cross-posted with SirDennis and Frelga

_________________
Mornings wouldn't suck so badly if they came later in the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 842
Location: Canada
Frelga wrote:
Hehe, Jeremia was the Haftarah (reading from prophets) this week.

I find this discussion a bit problematic - difficult not to answer the question from the non-Christian viewpoint, but doing so will almost certainly upset some Christian posters. I think I'll bow out now.


Ah that is too bad... I always appreciate your perspective on things. having said that I've also learned not to solicit a response from people who have bowed out of a discussion.

... shrimp, blech :puke:

ETA: Kind of an aside really, (sorry Voronwë) now that you mention it perhaps I should be more concerned about upsetting Christian posters as well. Truth is I just don't see (from history) how the people (in general) who built and adhered to the religion called Christianity got anything right that God's people who came before did not also get right. Conversely comparing histories between the two religions, I don't see where one comes out behind the other in getting some key things wrong.

The main difference is (as far as I can tell) the weight of history is embedded in the scriptures and therefore is heaviest regarding Jews before Jesus came along. In other words the first testament covers (as I understand it) the entire history of Jews to the time of Christ; the latter testament continues a bit of that history but covers only the early days of the Christian faith (and the interplay between secular law and religious law). However even in that relatively small period the scriptures often point to examples of Christian churches -- basically congregations named by geographical location -- "getting it wrong" as well. "Bad behaviours" recorded before Jesus are therefore more plentiful than they are after Jesus, but they are not confined to one group or the other. Does this make any sense?

None of this is said as someone who thinks he is getting everything right -- far from it. But as I've said before, it is surprising to see how many traditional [nominally Christian] religious practices actually contradict what the scriptures say. Yet even the reason that this is so is found in the scriptures...

edit for clarity


Last edited by SirDennis on Tue May 22, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:44 am 
Offline
bioalchemist
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 am
Posts: 9987
Location: the dry land
axordil wrote:
Well, that's the new kid on the block for ya. :D

Actually, it's a deep secret, but the actual reason the early Christian church decided to stop observing the rites of Leviticus and Deuteronomy is Paul developed a taste for shrimp.


*snicker*

I suppose chucking pig out of the diet wasn't going to help with winning converts either.

_________________
When you can do nothing what can you do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:42 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33402
Frelga wrote:
I find this discussion a bit problematic - difficult not to answer the question from the non-Christian viewpoint, but doing so will almost certainly upset some Christian posters. I think I'll bow out now.


Yeah, I hesitated to start it for that reason. But I concluded that with this group of people it would be possible to do without people taking offense. I'm hoping that you will reconsider and post your thoughts after all. I'm pretty sure that you can do so in a courteous manner.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:14 pm 
Offline
Lali Beag Bídeach
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:42 pm
Posts: 13445
Location: Rivendell
I don't think you can really say anything, Frelga, that would be a surprise to us. I think we understand that Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah and that they believe Christianity is a spin-off, false religion with false Scriptures. ?? Something like that?

I hesitated to say a few things because I knew they could come across as arrogant or offensive. I hope I succeeded in saying my views without causing any offense, though.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:37 pm 
Offline
Pleasantly Twisted
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:35 pm
Posts: 8996
Location: Black Creek Bottoms
When I made the Paul and shrimp joke, I was actually alluding to the historical reason, as opposed to the theological reason. Selling what had been perceived of as a sect of Judaism was much harder than selling a brand new mystery religion, which were already a popular phenomenon in the early Imperial period.

The fundamental decision to abandon the bulk of the Mosaic apparatus was marketing-based. The tension over the issue is thick in the first century of church history, though, for obvious reasons.

_________________

Resentment is no excuse for baldface stupidity.
-- Garrison Keillor

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:23 pm
Posts: 30
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Then what is the point of having Leviticus as part of the Bible?


Perhaps the point is the same as the point of still having the text of the 18th Amendment as part of modern copies of the US Constitution even though it has been superceded by first section of the 21st Amendment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:27 am 
Offline
This is Rome

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:48 pm
Posts: 5953
Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
V,

I'm curious why you singled out Yom Kippur of the many, many mitzvot in the Hebrew Bible that Christians deem superseded by the new covenant that they believe Jesus created. You could as easily have named Rosh Hashanah, kashrut, observance of Shabbat according to Jewish teachings, and the many other textual commandments of the Hebrew Bible that observant Jews still follow and ask why Christians do not follow those; for that matter, you could name the textual commandments that modern Judaism does not follow and question why Christians do not observe those, too. And in each case, the answer would be the same supercessionist beliefs that tend to make modern Jews uncomfortable and that we have discussed at length in TE, LBL, and even Bag End before.

So I am curious - apart from the reference at synagogue services - why are you singling out Yom Kippur as the commandment which you are questioning why Christians don't follow? Do you believe there is something special about Yom Kippur that should cause Christians to observe that one holiday even as mainstream Christianity believes that the other commandments of the Hebrew Bible no longer apply to its adherents or to anyone at all?

(Incidentally, there is some ironic overlap between Christians' views and practicing Jews' views on this score. Modern Judaism believes that only halachic Jews are bound by the 613 mitzvot, and all others are only bound by the Noachide laws, which bear some similarity to the Ten Commandments. So technically Christians and Jews are unanimous that Christians are not obligated to celebrate Yom Kippur - just for different reasons. :))

_________________
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:46 am 
Offline
halo optional
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:26 pm
Posts: 7854
Frelga wrote:
I find this discussion a bit problematic - difficult not to answer the question from the non-Christian viewpoint, but doing so will almost certainly upset some Christian posters. I think I'll bow out now.


I am not posting in Tol Eressëa, btw. Just thought I'd make that clear. :sunny:

What I AM doing is telling my friend Frelga that, once again, I appreciate her sensitivity. I got in a big hot mess trying to tell you this once before, Frelga, but I really do appreciate you and the efforts you make to talk about these things, honestly, and respectfully. (Not that all of you don't do that, it's just that Frelga does it so well! :)

That said...

I don't think it's possible to talk about such things and not step on some toes somewhere. I've had my toes trodden (lightly), and I am certain I've trod on others, but as long as we are being honest and respectful I think we are doing fine.

_________________
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:30 am 
Offline
Creature of the night
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:36 pm
Posts: 8414
Location: Where least expected
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Then what is the point of having Leviticus as part of the Bible?


The actual reason for having Leviticus in the Bible is to cultivate humility in eager young believers who vow to read through the entire Bible from cover to cover. Leviticus knocks the pride (and determination) right out of them. :)

My dear friend who happens to be a rabbi teaches occasionally at my church, usually on topics of her own choosing that deal with Jewish theology or Jewish-Christian relations. She has threatened to teach a class on why Leviticus matters. Sounds like fun to me, but then, I like to see Episcopalians squirm.

_________________
Take my hand, my friend. We are here to walk one another home.


Avatar from Fractal_OpenArtGroup


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:20 am 
Offline
Meanwhile...
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:31 pm
Posts: 13614
Location: Out on the banks
Awww shucks, Anthy, you do know how to turn a girl's head. :oops: :oops: :oops:

This is the season when the weekly Torah readings are from Leviticus, and as I am in the shul a lot more than usual due to bnai mitzvahs, I am getting a crash course, and quite a new respect for the book. God is such a commie! (in Torah and Gospels both)

_________________
Image
‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:40 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33402
nerdanel wrote:
I'm curious why you singled out Yom Kippur of the many, many mitzvot in the Hebrew Bible that Christians deem superseded by the new covenant that they believe Jesus created.


Mostly just because it happened to come up in the reading at the Bar Mitzmah, and I happened to be paying attention (rare enough in and of itself). And also because Yom Kippur is about the only one that has any personal meaning to me. But you are right that the concept applies much more generally.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 842
Location: Canada
[commentary]

The following applies to Jews and Christians alike I think:

Though it is become a bromide of sorts, it's important to keep in mind the difference between religion and God, or more precisely the difference between religious practices and faith in God. Having spent almost a year reading a few chapters a day (almost without fail) I have found that that difference is made more than apparent in his word.

This is not to say that there is no value in coming together as a congregation to worship God, learn about God from his Word, and to enjoy fellowship with other believers (in fact the scriptures tell us to do this). And certainly there is some value in belonging to an identifiable culture, observing its norms (which is why they persist), even as such norms are difficult to shake off (which is something we must all be prepared to do, especially where they are in conflict with what God would have us do).

There is a line (often crossed) where people identify more strongly with their denomination, religious practices, and/or the (sometimes false) teachings specific to their sect, than they do with God. This is vanity and idolatry -- vanity because one trusts more in the ways, ideas and scholarship of man than in God; idolatry because one's religion replaces God as the object of their affection and desire.

[/commentary]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:46 am
Posts: 73
Location: New Haven CT
I wish to offend no one, and I offer my toes for stepping on since I've gotten rather numb over the years. It's a consequence of reading too much. :)

Earlier posts have made it clear that the NT refers back to the OT often, so at the very least it must have been deemed necessary to include the OT just so people would understand what was meant. And that would hold especially true for the gentile converts who did not have the same history as the Jews. But once the decision was made that gentile converts to Christianity did not have to be circumcised, the way was open to pass up even more of the Jewish traditions and practices for those same gentile converts. The OT is a chronicle of the Hebrew people, among other things; but the gentile peoples had their own chronicles, and their own traditions. The history of the Christian Church in Europe especially is full of adaptations to the indigenous peoples, the better to convince them to convert. Had there been more Christians among the peoples of Palestine, perhaps more of the Jewish customs might have survived into Christianity.

Just a speculation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:41 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 33402
Well, I for one think that is about the best answer that I have seen to my original question. So I certainly am not offended! Thanks for weighing in, Morwenna. It's always a pleasure to see you here!

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group