It is currently Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:07 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 184 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 842
Location: Canada
Ax wrote:
Studies show that when confronted with unpleasant facts that contradict what they believe, people will refuse to accept the facts. A lot. For a lifetime in some cases. I see this passage as Eliphaz "doubling down" on things he believes that he cannot possibly reconcile with reality. Job MUST be vile to go through what he's going through. Wicked people CANNOT prosper in the long run. Virtuous people are ALWAYS rich.

Cognitive dissonance at its best.


Ax, are you saying that an ancient book of the Bible can describe something that people wrestle with today? :P (sorry, couldn't resist)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:58 pm 
Offline
Pleasantly Twisted
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:35 pm
Posts: 8996
Location: Black Creek Bottoms
SirDennis wrote:
Ax wrote:
Studies show that when confronted with unpleasant facts that contradict what they believe, people will refuse to accept the facts. A lot. For a lifetime in some cases. I see this passage as Eliphaz "doubling down" on things he believes that he cannot possibly reconcile with reality. Job MUST be vile to go through what he's going through. Wicked people CANNOT prosper in the long run. Virtuous people are ALWAYS rich.

Cognitive dissonance at its best.


Ax, are you saying that an ancient book of the Bible can describe something that people wrestle with today? :P (sorry, couldn't resist)


I don't think we've rewired our brains in the intervening centuries. Alas. ;)

_________________

Resentment is no excuse for baldface stupidity.
-- Garrison Keillor

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:23 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 32824
The Book of Job is absolutely applicable to today. Certainly to me more so than any other part of the bible.

_________________
Woods is most felt. Nice! it's gentle on your mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 842
Location: Canada
Alright then, the next few chapters do provide an interesting twist, and some of them are rather short, so it is worth running them down quickly.

Chapters 23 and 24 we find Job talking again. His mood is up and down, though Job 24 is a rather stable, sustained commentary on the godless (aka the wicked). There are some key passages in Job 23 that provide the context for God's speech at the end of the book. As well, Job seems to be winding down somewhat, leaving personal shots at his friends out of his commentary and highlighting points of agreement with them. It is as if (especially in Job 24) he is talking about the godless in a detached way, perhaps comfortable in the knowledge that he has established himself as not able to be counted among them.

In other words Job's speech below is not so much given in his own defence; rather it is about polishing some ideas that have come up through the course of the debate with Elifaz, Bildad and Zophar.

Job 23 NIV or HEB

Job Speaks about God's Judgements


1 Then Job replied:

2 “Even today my complaint is bitter;
his hand is heavy in spite of my groaning.

"I'm still hurting, God's not letting up."

3 If only I knew where to find him;
if only I could go to his dwelling!
4 I would state my case before him
and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would find out what he would answer me,
and consider what he would say to me.
6 Would he vigorously oppose me?
No, he would not press charges against me.
7 There the upright can establish their innocence before him,
and there I would be delivered forever from my judge.

Verses 6 and 7 are said with a kind of confidence that may demonstrate Job's belief in his blamelessness, but it also strays closely to speaking for God (or claiming to know the mind of God). Job has been given a lot of leeway because of his condition but I think these comments (and perhaps some others) end up provoking God in the final chapters.

8 “But if I go to the east, he is not there;
if I go to the west, I do not find him.
9 When he is at work in the north, I do not see him;
when he turns to the south, I catch no glimpse of him.
10 But he knows the way that I take;
when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.
11 My feet have closely followed his steps;
I have kept to his way without turning aside.
12 I have not departed from the commands of his lips;
I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.

More confidence in v 10.

Verses 8 and 9 place verses 10-12 in the context of "Though I cannot see him, I know that he knows what I've been up to and I will not be found wanting."


The idea is sound. But does Job's confidence rest in his own righteousness (or his works) or in his redeemer? The redeemer vindicates those he chooses to, regardless of anything they may or may not have done.

As if catching himself straying too close to boasting, Job describes God's sovereignty in verses 13-16.


13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.
15 That is why I am terrified before him;
when I think of all this, I fear him.
16 God has made my heart faint;
the Almighty has terrified me.
17 Yet I am not silenced by the darkness,
by the thick darkness that covers my face.

In case it is not apparent: Verses 13-17 might be paraphrased as, "God is almighty; his immeasurable power terrifies me. He has brought me low, but has not killed me... he is not finished with me yet."

Verse 17 "darkness" plays heavily in Job. A proviso: though darkness is also a euphemism for death, the way Job sometimes uses it evokes many sayings in the latter testament of the Christian Bible. This is to say that while the term is used to describe death, sheol, the grave and so on throughout both testaments, most commonly in the earlier or first testament -- apart from in Isaiah and sometimes Psalms -- Job appears to be using it in the sense it is almost exclusively understood in the latter testament, for instance as the counterpoint to Light, which is God, and/or the absence of light, meaning the absence of God.

Job 24 KJV or HEB

Job descries the ways of the godless


1 Why, seeing times are not hidden from the Almighty, do they that know him not see his days?

"Since God sees how nasty it is on earth, why doesn't he spare his people by taking us out of here to himself?"

2 Some remove the landmarks; they violently take away flocks, and feed thereof.

"removing landmarks" (stealing another person's land) is against the law as laid out in Deuteronomy.

3 They drive away the ass of the fatherless, they take the widow's ox for a pledge.

4 They turn the needy out of the way: the poor of the earth hide themselves together.

Verses 3 and 4 are counted as unrighteousness in the latter testament. In fact the council is to take care of the poor and widows, taking nothing in pledge when helping them out.

5 Behold, as wild asses in the desert, go they forth to their work; rising betimes for a prey: the wilderness yieldeth food for them and for their children.

6 They reap every one his corn in the field: and they gather the vintage of the wicked.

7 They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that they have no covering in the cold.

More godless behaviour towards the needy.

8 They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and embrace the rock for want of a shelter.

9 They pluck the fatherless from the breast, and take a pledge of the poor.

10 They cause him to go naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaf from the hungry;

11 Which make oil within their walls, and tread their winepresses, and suffer thirst.

Verses 9-11, in case you missed it, but also he seems to be describing the oppression of workers here, as godless behaviour.

12 Men groan from out of the city, and the soul of the wounded crieth out: yet God layeth not folly to them.

"They do all these [bad] things, yet God does not punish them or cause them to fall right away." This may be a comment about God's patience or mercy.

13 They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.

"They are against God and follow not his ways."

14 The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief.

15 The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, No eye shall see me: and disguiseth his face.

16 In the dark they dig through houses, which they had marked for themselves in the daytime: they know not the light.

17 For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death.

Verse 17 has it in some versions "in the terrors of darkness." Notice the variation in how light is used in verses 14 through 16: in v14 Job says "murders act with impunity, in the light of the day, [before God even]." In v16, as it follows v15, the double meaning is there also.

18 He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards.

19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.

"But," says Job, "God will not allow them to enjoy the fruit of their wicked ways forever."

20 The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

21 He evil entreateth the barren that beareth not: and doeth not good to the widow.

V20 has a sobering beauty about it.

V21 in the NIV is rendered: They prey on the barren and childless woman,
and to the widow they show no kindness.
It seems Job is describing again that the godless forget about helping widows, but also, in the first part, seems to be describing the mistreatment (perhaps using them as prostitutes?) of women in general.


22 He draweth also the mighty with his power: he riseth up, and no man is sure of life.

23 Though it be given him to be in safety, whereon he resteth; yet his eyes are upon their ways.

24 They are exalted for a little while, but are gone and brought low; they are taken out of the way as all other, and cut off as the tops of the ears of corn.

Verses 22-24: "No one escapes judgement, even the mighty, and especially the godless who appear to have attained the good life."

25 And if it be not so now, who will make me a liar, and make my speech nothing worth?

"What say you to all that?"

Just a heads up, I will probably combine the next 3 chapters in one post. Bildad's response is quite short, as you will see.

Edit: added an additional note to Job 23:13-17;
Reworked the comment following Job 23:12; and
fixed one small typo.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 184 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group