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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:45 pm 
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:) Well, Narya, I am used to being on the other end of the spectrum. But your question for this thread was intriguing and a challenging one to attempt to answer. Which, of course, provoked a response.

I find the disparity between how things appear from the inside looking out versus the outside looking in fascinating. That is especially intriguing when it comes to people. How some feel that they have so little value to, or impact on others when those who know them hold them in a much higher regard. And then there are those who are so full of themselves they are mystified that those around them cannot see and appreciate such brilliance right before their eyes.

For me, the "who" is intrisically linked to where our unsummoned but strongest inspiration(s) or sense of purpose that always resides in our heart or mind. I am very much a person who believes that what we do demonstrates more of who we are than what we think, feel or believe.

If only I had understood that earlier in life, I would have done several things differently!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Every time this thread comes up, the title reminds me of Babylon 5.
Other fans know of what I speak.

Delenn got tortured for a whole episode trying to answer that question. It really is unanswerable.

"Who are you?" You are you. I am me. The things you do, the body you wear are not relevant to who you are at the core.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:05 am 
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Maria wrote:
Every time this thread comes up, the title reminds me of Babylon 5.
Other fans know of what I speak.

Me too. "B-5 fan" is part of who I am. :D

Folca wrote:
For me, the "who" is intrisically linked to where our unsummoned but strongest inspiration(s) or sense of purpose that always resides in our heart or mind. I am very much a person who believes that what we do demonstrates more of who we are than what we think, feel or believe.

Then I'm definitely "unique". I don't know any other dragon boating, suicide hotline counseling, gardening, F/SF avidly reading, disaster responding, polyhedral model building, 35-years married, parenting, elder caring, nature loving, biking, language studying, forum lurking engineers.

I yam what I yam. Not to mention exhausted.:P

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:05 am 
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Maria- So our actions don't reflect who we are, especially our most sincere actions? I think they can be demonstrative, but not precisely definitive. Haven't watched B 5, more a Farscape and Firefly person. What episode should I be looking at to better understand?

Narya- Bravo to you on the suicide counseling. I am CIT trained, which is more geared towards mental health consumers, but the skill set has been useful dealing with suicidal individuals as well.

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"There are some things that it is better to begin than refuse, even though the end may be dark" Aragorn
"Those who commit honorable acts need no forgiveness"
http://killology.com/sheep_dog.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:51 am 
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I think you nailed it, Folca. Things inside our head are illusory. It is by action that we make them (and us?) real.

Speaking of which, I better go do some housework as a way of being a Grownup with a House. Then I'll get ready for being a Professional tomorrow, and maybe can be a Writer for a bit after I'm done being a Mom for the day.

And I ought to stop being a Goof on the Internet.

:blackeye:

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:04 am 
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Never a goof, and no mistake. You are always exactly as you should be. :D

Folca, what is CIT?

As for actions speaking louder than words, when Congress briefly considered extending the draft to women, back in 1980 or so, I promptly became a postulate in the Secular Franciscan Order (where members are forbidden to bear arms) because I figured it was more definitive than just saying I was a conscientious objector. Of course, there was no mandatory draft at the time, but I wanted to make my case anyway.

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:05 am 
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Aw shucks, Narya. :hug:

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‘There’s no greys, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.’
‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Bab 5 is a series that must be watched in sequence, Folca. In fact, when my mom tried to get us started on B5 when it was airing, she happened to send us a recording of the episode mentioned- and I was horrified enough that we didn't watch the series for years and years after it was done airing.

Taken in context of the whole story arc, the episode is a reasonable part of character development. Taken as a single episode it's just brutal and off-putting.

Babylon 5 is one of my favorite series ever, though, and one of the first sci fi series to have a well planned story arc through the first 4 seasons. I wish they'd release it in blu-ray with the CG redone.... *sigh*

I can't help you with the philosophical stuff right now. I'm just not up to it. My brain isn't working well today.

But when I read this thread title, I keep hearing a Vorlon's voice saying , "Who are you?" and Mr. Morden saying , "What do you want?" :help:

That's probably because we are rewatching the series right now. :love:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:20 pm 
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CIT--Crisis Intervention Training, or something like that, would be my guess. (But I view it through law enforcement eyes. I guess it could be Certified Industrial Technologist. ??)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:01 am 
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Lalaith nailed it. CIT is designed to help law enforcement better recgnize mental health consumers who are in a moment of crisis and de-escalate the situation. The goal is to not criminalize the mentally ill and reduce injury to officers and consumers when they interact. The skills in de-escalation are useful when interacting with suicidal individuals as well.

B 5 is on my list of shows to watch, but not immediately. As for the context outside of the story arc, I would still like to know the episode. Hollywood brutality doesn't touch real life, pretty sure it won't bother me much.

Narya- Would membership in that order have prevented you from actually being drafted?

Frelga- Goof all you like on the Internet! We can't take everything too seriously. One of my personal sayings is: "You can laugh or cry. Crying dehydrates you."

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"Ut Prosim"
"There are some things that it is better to begin than refuse, even though the end may be dark" Aragorn
"Those who commit honorable acts need no forgiveness"
http://killology.com/sheep_dog.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:30 pm 
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On another thread there was mention of preferring that a certain forum member please take care of herself because, though we'd see her in Heaven, we'd also like to see more of her here. Which brings up my long standing question: If there is a Heaven, and we end up in it, and we are perfected, how will we tell each other apart? Name tags?

Mind you, I no longer have faith that there is an afterlife awaiting me, so this is a hypothetical question only, but it is an extension of the "Who are you?" question that I think is worth pursuing. Is there more than one version of Perfect or would we all look pretty much alike if/when perfected? And whose version of perfect, anyway? I'm a long ways from the feminine perfection espoused by some males in some societies.

Or as others have put it in this thread, it is the goals, the causes, the railings-against-injustice, the connections with others, the daily tasks, the apart-ness, that make us who we are. In a perfect place, who would we be? Can we just be human beings? Or do we define ourselves as human doings?

As an engineer, my compulsion is to make the world a better place to live in. As a volunteer, my compulsion is to make other people's lives a tiny bit better, or at least ease the pain for a short time by truly listening. I don't know what I'd do in Eden, or the pre-industrial society Tolkien yearned for. How would I define myself if I didn't need to eat, exercise, work, shop, explore, connect, sacrifice, endure?

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:48 pm 
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I've thought about this a lot, but I find it a little sad that many people have a hard time with the concept of Heaven because they define themselves by pain and suffering.

Without pain and suffering (and more importantly sin and temptation), does not mean there is nothing to do... nor does it mean we can't remember the pain and suffering we all experience in this life.

To take a thought from Tolkien, I believe we are creators at the root of our being, and there is nothing stopping us from creating things in the afterlife described in the Bible. There is nothing stopping us from learning new things or sharing our creations, teaching about them, learning about others, and then building new stuff.

Lack of pain and suffering does not eliminate failure, either, just our own (often self-imposed) pain given such a failure.

There's also talk of a new Earth, which means we don't have to stop learning about the universe (or starting all over with a new one), and just because God knows everything, doesn't mean he's going to tell us everything... and learning new stuff is always a challenge and a fulfilling one.

Pretty sure also, that though we won't starve with lack of eating... we could still enjoy eating, especially when people create new stuff to try.

And of course, there's always love, which is always worth exploring more.

Eternity is a crazy thing, but I think it will be an adventure, not a burden.

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For the DESPAIRING may you find HOPE
For the LONELY may you find LOVE
For the SKEPTICAL may you find FAITH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:04 am 
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"...an adventure, not a burden." Yes.

I think that there is a central,unique essence of each of us that gets clouded and covered up by the pains and hatreds and separations of this life. Sometimes we get a glimpse of this inner person in someone else, usually when we are looking with eyes of love and compassion.

I believe that in the life after death, we see and recognize one another in these innate forms that have less to do with a physical look or age than with the core self.

Have you ever met someone and felt a kinship you can't explain? Have you ever known someone whose mere presence brought you joy? That, I think, is how we will experience one another in that far green country.

I fully intend to tell vison how amazing she is. But by then, she'll already know, because she, too, will see clearly.

What will we do for eternity? I don't know. But it will be wrapped in love, which I trust to be far from boring.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:55 am 
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I wonder if those people with whom we immediately feel an inexplicable kinship are people we already know from eternity.

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If there is a Heaven, and we end up in it, and we are perfected, how will we tell each other apart? Name tags?


I don't think perfected means we'll all be exactly the same. I think it means perfected within ourselves, according to our gifts, abilities, physical attributes, etc.

And I think we'll be busy. Like the others, I don't know exactly what that means, but I expect it to be wonderful.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:25 am 
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Busy being the people we are most meant to be—that sounds pretty heavenly to me.

Like lots of Lutherans, I find this to be too sweet a deal to really believe in. But there's nothing wrong in continuing to do your best without really being able to believe in heaven. Or so I think. Nothing wrong with happy astonishment later on!

My heaven would definitely include long days cooking with vison, and numerous others. I think that must be where the heavenly feasts mentioned in scripture come from: all the happy cooks fulfilling their joy.The joy of the diners is secondary. :D

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:37 am 
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hal wrote:
I find it a little sad that many people have a hard time with the concept of Heaven because they define themselves by pain and suffering.


There is something very evocative and hauntingly sad about these words, hal. Perhaps many people really do define themselves by pain and suffering. And that is quite a sobering thought, really.



Lalaith wrote:
I wonder if those people with whom we immediately feel an inexplicable kinship are people we already know from eternity.


:kiss:


I think it is hard to imagine heaven with our earth-bound minds. :) I am content to accept that I can't even begin to visualize the details of the glory of any of it. Perhaps think when we get there, we will all be chuckling about how we once tried to figure it all out. I have an idea it is more about simply being than about defining how things work.

Hmmm. An eternal break from trying to make sense of things. That does kind of sound like heaven, doesn't it?

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"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:46 am 
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Well, I'm happy for you folks to have that to look forward to. It still doesn't answer my question, though, that if you stripped away all imperfections of people, would the all be alike? Is there more than one perfect? And who defines perfect?

:grouphug:

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In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer.

And that makes me happy. For it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there’s something stronger – something better, pushing right back.

~ Albert Camus


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:56 am 
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anthriel wrote:
Hmmm. An eternal break from trying to make sense of things. That does kind of sound like heaven, doesn't it?


Honestly, and I'm not trying to be difficult here, but the process of trying to make sense of things is so fundamental to what I understand to be "human" that I'm not really sure we'd be the same beings without it. Maybe that's the point, though.

I'm well and truly agnostic about the prospect of an afterlife - I think it's unlikely but possible. However, assuming that I have some forewarning of my death (e.g., terminal illness or old age rather than something more sudden and unexpected), I would prepare for death assuming that it was the end for all time and that I would completely cease to exist. I think it is at root a reluctance to contend with that hard-to-accept result that has given rise to rich conjecture about an afterlife throughout human history.

Put differently, vison and I always agreed on this. But it's really a win-win, as if we're wrong, we probably get to meet again and laugh about how wrong we were. That's a pretty good ending.

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Can't write my story
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When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:31 am 
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It's an ending I certainly look forward to—without being able to swear to being 100% certain of it.

I don't envision you and me and vison doing a lot of cooking, but there is certainly something we could do together and enjoy. Whitewater rafting?

Actually, that works for me. :D

I think we can all be ourselves without suffering, because I think God wants us to live that way. Where there is pain, we can serve God and our fellow humans by helping. Where there is not pain, maybe our task (possibly even more terrifying) is to be ourselves. Our real, naked selves. And be true to them.

I think there would still be room for compassion in heaven. It would be honored there. Not everyone will arrive whole.

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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:01 am 
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halplm wrote:
I've thought about this a lot, but I find it a little sad that many people have a hard time with the concept of Heaven because they define themselves by pain and suffering.


Why? I don't believe in Heaven (I would put it: I know that there is no heaven), but I don't define myself over pain and suffering. I don't understand the logic of this.

Narya, to me your question has no possible answer, as perfection does not exist per se - it only exists in the eye of a person who sees something or someone as perfect. So, there is more than one perfct - think of the different concepts of beauty only. There are as many perfects as imperfects.

But I also think that eternity is happening right now, right here in every second. Every second in this world something, anything, a little thing is perfect for at least one human being in this world. Why should my feeling of imperfection outweigh this other perfection? Life is perfect in every moment, it's just a question of point of view.

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