Tsunami was Gods Retribution?

Post by **SirDennis** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:13 pm

For what ought to be the Christian perspective here are a few scriptures to consider:

Luke 6:35 Rather, love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind even to ungrateful and evil people.

Matt 5: 44-47 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
(here the sun and the rain refer to God's mercy, love and saving grace, but may also be taken as a principle in how weather is experienced.)

Matt 8:24-27 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”
He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

The last passage is key I think. Though God controls the weather, I can't think of an instance where he used it as a punishment or to destroy (apart from Noah which we are told was a one off).

There is the story of Jonah and the Whale where a storm attributed to God's displeasure with Jonah ended when he was cast into the sea (and then swallowed by the whale) but the weather wasn't being used to punish anyone. Get someone's attention maybe (Jonah had disobeyed God's direct command to go somewhere, and decided to go elsewhere instead). Either way, as far as Christians are concerned, preaching condemnation contradicts the first passage I shared.

What bugs me about these kinds of pronouncements is it tends to be off putting, especially for people who are sincerely interested in God. It is a false teaching actually. The Bible tells us there will be many false teachers, even in churches:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

The destruction here might be what some are referring to, but the application is wrong. That destruction (by what means, it doesn't say) is for people spreading false doctrines about God, not in general. Those who should know better who are preaching condemnation over the unconverted (and sometimes the converted) often are spreading a false doctrine. To get really specific, the destruction is especially meant for those preachers who deny the Sovereignty of Jesus.

eta even when they were crucifying him, Jesus had this to say:

Luke 23:34a Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

I just don't understand where such other ideas come from, except maybe from a heart that craves power and seeks to control others...

Post by **vison** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:39 pm

So - what's with all these tornadoes?

Post by **Holbytla** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:00 am

El Nino or La Nina purportedly.

Post by **Frelga** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:55 am

Well, to address yov's earlier comment, there may be cause and effect going on. Human activity messes with the climate system, causing more devastating tornados, floods, etc. I do not assign anthropomorphic qualities to these events (Mother Nature's wrath, etc.) and I don't believe they are targeted.

I'm just saying, a subset of religious people seem to have this logic: Earthquake happened on West Coast. God controls natural disasters. West Coast is liberal. Therefore, the earthquake was a warning/punishment to liberals.

I just wonder why no one applies the same logic with "Tornado happened in Alabama" for an input.

Still praying for safety of everyone in the harm's way.

P.S.: Sir D, we should have a Jonah discussion some day.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:18 am

I'd love to read a discussion of Jonah.

It came up in the lectionary in church the other week, and the pastor referred to the story as a comedy. I think he might be on to something.

Post by **vison** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:36 am

Jonah is about my favourite bible story, next to Daniel and the Lion's Den. Or was it the Fiery Furnace? Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. What cool names.

Why is Fiery spelled that way? Did I spell it wrong?

No. I don't think so.

The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.

I'm outa here . . . .

Post by **axordil** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:07 am

As a writer, the coolest thing about Jonah is that he's a great character. He's not obviously cut out for the whole prophet gig.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:20 am

When after Jonah's warning the people of Nineveh actually repent, and God decides not to smite them after all, Jonah's pout is positively biblical.

Post by **SirDennis** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:14 am

Frelga wrote: I just wonder why no one applies the same logic with "Tornado happened in Alabama" for an input.

One did today. Admittedly, recent sermon aside, it was the first place my mind went. And then I caught myself and repented.

Yes there are some good stories there, Jonah (you can run from God but it is futile), Daniel and the Lions Den (God's law vs man's law), and that story with the funny names and the fiery furnace (Veggie Tales does a great version).

Yes Frelga, we should. Jonah affords many lectures, simple and potentially comical though it is.

Post by **Lalaith** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:32 pm

Veggie Tales does a great version of all of those.

You know, Sir D, you've made me wonder. Weren't there instances of God bringing famine on the land to punish people? Or, and maybe this is it, he worked through the famine to accomplish some purpose (drive Joseph's brothers to go to Egypt and, thus, bring the nation of Israel into Egypt). I'll need to go research this now.

(To be clear, I don't typically think things like, "God is punishing that nation/area through <natural disaster of your choice>.")

ETA: Well, I'm not sure you're right, Sir D. I did find several instances of God using the weather to punish or reward. Some of the passages don't say explicitly that God is the one governing the weather, but they do say that He is working in the circumstance for His purpose. Some are explicit in attributing the weather issue to God directly for the purpose of reward or punishment.

Deut. 28:24 (drought)
Deut. 11:13-15 (rain as a reward)
II Sam. 21 (drought and famine)
I Kings 8:35-36 (good weather as a reward)

The other instances I saw included the occasional storm and hail storm. Sometimes God used thunder to scatter the enemies of Israel or get people's attention. Mostly it was related to rain and drought.

Post by **Dave_LF** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:51 pm

Tornado clusters like this are not outside of historical norms. There have, in fact, been much worse outbreaks in the past:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No ... _outbreaks

The main difference is that we're more densely settled now, and we all share the same news.

Post by **SirDennis** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:45 am

Lali I see what you are saying. And certainly the idea that disaster is punishment for our errant ways is a popular notion. However I do not see where the scriptures say so. In fact God let his son be crucified that none (who accept Him) would perish...

I just re-read the story of Joseph recently and unless I am mistaken the point was that God used Joseph to spare people from the 7 years of drought that was on the way. (The rhythms of the world are experienced as seasons, not just Spring, Summer etc but also as times of plenty and times of scarcity, a time to live and a time to die, and so on...)

Through his position with Pharaoh, and with God's warning of the coming drought, Joseph put enough provisions by to spare everyone. That through the selling of those provisions during the drought Pharaoh ended up owning everything and everyone is a secondary issue (but one that set the stage for Moses).

Actually, the Joseph story is often summed up by the idea "What the enemy intended for harm, God turned for good." This refers to how if Joseph's brothers hadn't tried to kill him, Joseph never would have become Pharaoh's 2IC, and everyone would have perished during the drought.

You've been at this a lot longer than I have so I will defer to you that there may be points where weather was used as a way to punish but I have not seen this theme myself in the scriptures. With faith, I know if it is there, God will show me as he always does. Or He will show me something that contradicts that idea...

Ask and it will be given. Before posting I did a little search:

Job 37:11-13 it says,

"He loads the thick cloud with moisture;
the clouds scatter his lightning.
They turn around and around by his guidance,
to accomplish all that he commands them
on the face of the habitable world.
Whether for correction or for his land
or for love, he causes it to happen."

Some might argue (I would) whether correction always takes the form of punishment. Certainly for the 35 dead (that we know of) by tornadoes this week, correction doesn't enter into it -- unless it is their loved ones who are receiving correction. The passage does however affirm that God controls the rain for his purpose. The idea of Job is it is not our place to "question why?" It may extend to the idea that it is not our place to "pronounce why" either (as in preach condemnation). Thinking about this a bit more, the act of interpreting what bad weather or disasters mean (ie it is definitely God's wrath) may be presuming to speak for God. That scares me.

I'm still sceptical. God's enduring mercy is a major theme. God bringing bad weather or disasters as punishment is not. We are told time again that trials and difficulty will come, but I have a hard time believing that since Jesus' death for our atonement, that God is throwing tornadoes our way as punishment before Judgement Day is upon us.

Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to all generations.

See here for all the instances in the NKJV mercy endures comes up: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?se ... rdsonly=no

The drought mentioned in 11 Sam 21:1 is pretty straight forward though:

"During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the LORD. The LORD said, 'It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.'"

(edited several times but I think it is about as good as it's likely to get now.)

ETA Nope this page (though headache inducing) makes a strong case for God controlling the weather. I would have to check the context of most listed scriptures to discern if weather is used as punishment, but there is one small (and obtuse focusing mainly on Jeremiah) section reserved specifically for that question... see here: http://www.dianedew.com/weather.htm

All this is to say, thanks Lali for caring enough to speak up. Perhaps I am missing something after all.

EETA (hopefully the last one) There is this, though it is sparse: http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... -judge-us/

As for judgment, the Bible says when God uses weather as a tool of judgment men’s hearts will fail them for fear (Luke 21:26) and the hail stones will weigh 100 lbs. each (Rev. 16:21) so you really won’t want to be around when His judgments begin. Thankfully, God won’t judge the world until He has taken the Church out of the way (1 Thes. 1:10).

eeeta last edit in blue.

Post by **Frelga** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:46 pm

Ok, ok, so we got a jolt, too. * waves at Teremia who got the same wake up call *

Post by **axordil** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:36 pm

One thing about the OT stories: in them, God was always pretty clear about why things were happening.

Now, not so much. Kinda makes the whole retribution thing pointless for correction, if it's not spelled out as to why it's happening.

Post by **Lalaith** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:13 pm

Well, I agree, ax and Sir D. I do think it presumes to speak for God to attribute calamities that occur now as punishment on a nation or a people. I really don't think we should. I think it may be a possibility in some cases, but, since we don't have the Holy Spirit guiding us to write down new Scripture, we should be very cautious in what we say about situations. At most, we can encourage others to focus on the positives that come out of these situations, many of which are of a spiritual or an emotional nature (restoring faith, building relationships with others, healing of petty divisions and rivalry, etc.). This may be the purpose of why God causes or allows things to happen, instead of retribution. Like ax said, if no prophet is there to declare it (and I'm suspicious of most "prophets" who claim that title today), then what would be the point to retribution through natural disasters?

Did God use weather in other times to punish and reward? Yes, I think you can make that case with Scripture. Does that mean he's doing it now? I don't know, and I'm not a prophet. So I won't be making any proclamations of that sort.

Post by **SirDennis** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:32 pm

axordil wrote:One thing about the OT stories: in them, God was always pretty clear about why things were happening.

Now, not so much. Kinda makes the whole retribution thing pointless for correction, if it's not spelled out as to why it's happening.

This is almost exactly what one of my mentors said yesterday when I put this question to him.

During a study, later, some guidelines for approaching scripture were discussed:

- The OT should be viewed in light of the NT and vice versa;
- as far as possible it should be discerned what genre we are reading in (historical, eschatological, hyperbolic (ie plank in eye));
- interpret unclear verses in light of clear verses;
- don't form a doctrine based solely on historical events (ie II Sam 21?);
- (this one is especially important for me to keep in mind) don't interpret scripture based on personal experiences;
- do interpret personal experiences based on scripture;
- and remember that the Bible is its own best commentary.

Something else to keep in mind, and I truly believe this, Faith and the Holy Spirit are necessary for _proper_ understanding of the Bible. Perhaps ironically we are told this in I Cor 2:11-16:

For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

NIV. Emphasis added. Blue bit Frelga will know quotes Isaiah 40:13

Again, Lali thank you for pointing to my error. Just because I hadn't (or didn't remember) seeing examples of weather being used as punishment doesn't mean I should have said such examples do not exist. I felt uncomfortable after I made such a definitive statement and am grateful that you spoke up. Your sayings are good, as usual.

Post by **SirDennis** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:06 pm

The following is a bit heavy, but it is an object lesson on the question:

Matt 11:20-24

Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

In the above passage we see Jesus -- to Christians, God Himself -- denouncing some cities.

1. What principles can be gleaned from this passage?
2. Contrast the above with this verse: Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29)

ETA: for the record, these are not trick questions. I have some ideas about the passage and I think it relates to the concept of God's wrath. Just trying to keep the discussion going...

Post by **SirDennis** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Here's another passage that I think relates to the question, though it is subtle:

Matt 12:17-20

This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. (emphasis added)

The above refers to Jesus in light of a passage from Isaiah.

The questions from my previous post may be viewed in light of this passage as well. Any takers?

Post by **Lalaith** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:13 pm

(Hopefully tonight, when I have more time!)

Post by **Frelga** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:27 pm

Well, I will mention in passing that obviously Christians and Jews do not agree on the Isaiah passages. Buy that's a millennia-old debate and I won't rehash it here.