The nature of truth

Post by **WampusCat** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:13 am

My reaction to seeing anything labeled "based on true events" is to assume there's only a loose connection, if any, to what actually happened. If something is presented as a documentary, I assume that it is being offered as fact (whether it is or not depends on the credibility and thoroughness of the journalist). If it's a fictionalization, I always assume that facts are secondary to the story line.

Post by **JewelSong** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:27 am

TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:In a way, yes. The way we tell stories, the details we choose to subtract or add, all contribute to either making that story seem true or seem to expose some truth or do neither.

I guess the issue for me is the definition of the word "true" as applied to the examples.

I am assuming that you don't mean "factual" here.

Usually, the disclaimer says: "Based on actual events" - ie: events that really happened. Like Wampus, I take that to mean that the storyteller has used events that occurred as a jumping off point for the story and changed outcomes and specifics as needed to make a good story.

If it is a documentary, I expect the events and outcomes to be as factual as possible.

Are you intending the word "true" to mean something other than factual...like a Great Truth of Life or something?

In the examples given, are you asking which one "rings true?" Because to me, they still both seem like totally different stories. If the outcome had been the same (ie, the family had died in both of them, or the soldiers had lived in both or whatever) then it might be easier for me to see where you might be going with this.

But as it is, I don't quite get it.

Post by **axordil** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:12 pm

Some outcomes are more satisfying than others, in terms of our narrative expectations. Stories with a tragic arc that don't have a tragic ending can be annoying--or illuminating, in the hands of someone really good. The reverse is true as well.

The image of a family arguing about trivialities up until the moment of a fatal crash has a lot of pathos. For those who are into pathos, it's going to be more satisfying than one where they drive off none the worse for wear.

Post by **MithLuin** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:42 pm

And yet, in real life, we want them to be okay, just about no matter what.

I'm not sure I'm qualified for a discussion of....er...truthiness.

Things are true or false, sometimes, or factual (or not)...and yes, there is the issue of whether or not something resonates with us in a 'that's the way the universe works' sort of way. I'd say LotR is true (or contains a lot of truth)...but if I claimed it were real I'd be insane.

Storytelling is an art, though, and it does have some conventions. When the mother in vison's story says "It won't kill you" to take the boy shopping to her husband, we get the impression that those could be ominous words. Whereas, in real life, since no one knows if the day will be mundane or story-worthy, it wouldn't have that 'dun-dun-DUN' tone to it. It's just...life. Most days, we don't get into car accidents.

In real life, sometimes the cigar is just a cigar and Checkov's gun never goes off. In a story, though, we are under the impression that details are included for a reason. When Inigo tells the Man in Black the story of the six-fingered man who killed his father, we know a) the story will contain a six-fingered man and b) Inigo will have an opportunity to confront him. Never mind that it's been 20 years since his father's murder and he doesn't know the guy's name or where he lives. It's a story so we expect resolution, darn it! In real life...the family of a cold case may never find out who killed their loved one let alone see justice done. So...yeah. True? True-to-life and satisfying-in-a-story are different things.

How many story villains are victims of death-by-poetic-justice? And in real life....?

Post by **vison** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:46 pm

I don't expect fairness from a story, only that it is "true". The little story I wrote above didn't turn out the way I had "planned" it, it went the way it wanted to go. But I want to get the "planned" one out, too. Sorry about the cussing. Eddy cusses a lot.

Some sorts of stories, of course, do have to be "fair". A heroic quest can't end with the "hero" taking the Ring - for example

- and turning into the villain.

By gum, Tolkien was good!

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:01 pm

Sometimes in stories "fairness" consists just of recognition that what happens to the character is unfair. People like to have their expectations of the world validated, even if negatively.

Post by **axordil** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:08 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:Sometimes in stories "fairness" consists just of recognition that what happens to the character is unfair. People like to have their expectations of the world validated, even if negatively.

This. The artist challenges expectations at his or her own peril. The most memorable artists, of course, succeed.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:16 pm

Yes. But that's one of those targets it's dangerous to aim at, if you're not one of those memorable few.

Post by **axordil** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:48 pm

Indeed. It's like doing one of those really dangerous dives--nail it and you get the gold, miss it and you end your career.

Post by **Lidless** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:44 am

Truth, ultimately. is what you need it to be - a mix of belief, personal experience and weighing up the concensus of others - nothing more. Everyone has their own mixing bowl.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:47 pm

I like a copper mixing bowl, if I'm making a meringue. But glass works otherwise.

Truth is like that.

Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:21 pm

I thoroughly disagree. One of my mentors, Babatunde Olatunji, used to say that if I am standing over here, and you are standing over there, the truth is some place in between. I keeping trying to pull the truth over to my side, and you keep trying to pull the truth over to your side, but the truth is just where it is. The fact that we have different perceptions of the truth is a reflection on us, not on the truth. And the belief that the truth is relative is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous concepts in the history of mankind. If people tried hard to move towards the truth, rather than insisting on trying to move the truth towards them, this would be a much better world. Again, in my opinion.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:27 pm

the belief that the truth is relative is, in my opinion, one of the most dangerous concepts in the history of mankind

Possibly. That doesn't make it, if you will, untrue. Nuclear physics is a very dangerous concept as well, whether we like it or not.

Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:53 pm

Post by **yovargas** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:10 pm

(Which smiley-centric post is more true?)

Post by **axordil** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:55 pm

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:58 pm

Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:10 pm

I'm sorry. I didn't want to divert this interesting thread into a smiley-fest. My only intention was to make a friendly gesture rather than continuing to engage in further debate on the nature of truth.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:24 pm

I also believe that truths (as opposed to customs and rules) are absolute. We just perceive them differently, or not at all, depending on where we're standing. And no, I don't believe my own perception of truth is the same as those absolutes. We all fall short. As Voronwë says,

If people tried hard to move towards the truth, rather than insisting on trying to move the truth towards them, this would be a much better world

.

Post by **vison** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:59 pm

Primula Baggins wrote:I also believe that truths (as opposed to customs and rules) are absolute. We just perceive them differently, or not at all, depending on where we're standing. And no, I don't believe my own perception of truth is the same as those absolutes. We all fall short. As Voronwë says,

If people tried hard to move towards the truth, rather than insisting on trying to move the truth towards them, this would be a much better world
.

Very true.