Prim - my entire adult life has been spent helping others to find more knowledge and more information to help them grow in knowledge. That is what I do. It is ingrained deeply in me and I can no more turn a deaf ear to helping in the quest of knowledge than I can stop breathing. I am deeply thankful that others were there to help me and continue each day to help me grow.
I do not look at my offering of Malachi Martin to Solicitr as anything but what it was - a sincere offer to provide someone with information that they may not have had.
I daresay that if anyone else but myself had made that exact same offer to him, the response would not have been what it was.
Clerical Child Abuse in Ireland
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nerdanel
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
SF, you wrote:
Here's a revised, less condescending version, which would still fulfill your objective of helping others in the quest of knowledge and growth:Solicitr..... I realize you have said you are a convert. You might want to read some actual history of the Church and start with Malachi Martin who can tell you all about the Papacy and some of those sacraments. The man was deep on the inside and has written in graphic detail about many matters that the Church would just as soon its members not know about.
Solicitr...are you familiar with Malachi Martin's description of the Papacy and sacraments? The man was deep on the inside and has written in graphic detail about many matters that the Church would just as soon its members not know about. If you've read Martin's work, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Jewel, I'm in the "I'd like to be buried in a Catholic graveyard" camp. I may be a bad Catholic. I may be a naive Catholic. But I am pretty sure I will always be a Catholic. I don't give myself much credit for the decision not to fall away; that has a lot more to do with my mother's prayers.
How scandal is dealt with is important. Obviously, it's scandalous that there is a scandal. But, yeah, the tenth century porno popes have way more dirt on them than the current one, and I knew about them before I knew about this scandal. Certainly, popes have been accused of some pretty horrific things, and some of them are most likely true. [And some of it was politics; history is complicated.]
Seeking to cover up a scandal is bad. Throwing people under the bus to cut your losses is also bad. Failing to take steps to address the problem is very bad (and ultimately fatal). Acknowledging there is a problem and taking steps to address it is the only way to get rid of the scandal, as vison pointed out above. Was that done immediately in this case by the Catholic Church? No. So, that's...unfortunate, and led to a lot of problems, a lot of people being hurt. It is (as far as I can tell) being done now. The pope very publically apologized for the way the abuse cases were handled when he made a trip to the US a year or so ago, and he also made a point of meeting with victims privately in DC. That's the public gesture. He also audited US seminaries, which sends another type of message.
Do I think the problem is solved? No. I know there are still priests out there who are not good priests. But I think it is a lot less likely that anyone is going to shelter and enable them when they are found out now. So...work is being done. In my own diocese, the names of everyone who had creditably been accused of abuse were published in the newspaper in 2003, along with where they had been stationed and in what years. That's...about as transparent as you can be. A priest who was found to have had an affair with an adult woman 30 years ago was immediately removed from his parish when that came to the attention of the Archdiocese. Is this the best way of dealing with this situation? Perhaps not. But I know people aren't just holding their breaths and waiting for the reporters to go away - policies are being changed, and everyone is much more aware of the dangers.
We're not going to stop child sex abuse any time soon, unfortunately. And I do find it...very, very saddening that the Church didn't do more to stop these things from happening.
But to answer your question, Jewel - I am a Catholic because Catholicism is true. Bad men do not make it less true. The Church does pass through some pretty rough patches in history, and then renewal is necessary. I think it has been very clear to me for a long time that the Church needs renewal badly. An eleventh century clergyman lamented that it was better to have good priests than many priests. I agree with him. Holiness in the priesthood is never something to take for granted.
I would not leave the Catholic Church if my parish priest were a bad priest, though. Not all victims of abuse left the Church as a result of what happened to them - so they must see something worth staying for!
How scandal is dealt with is important. Obviously, it's scandalous that there is a scandal. But, yeah, the tenth century porno popes have way more dirt on them than the current one, and I knew about them before I knew about this scandal. Certainly, popes have been accused of some pretty horrific things, and some of them are most likely true. [And some of it was politics; history is complicated.]
Seeking to cover up a scandal is bad. Throwing people under the bus to cut your losses is also bad. Failing to take steps to address the problem is very bad (and ultimately fatal). Acknowledging there is a problem and taking steps to address it is the only way to get rid of the scandal, as vison pointed out above. Was that done immediately in this case by the Catholic Church? No. So, that's...unfortunate, and led to a lot of problems, a lot of people being hurt. It is (as far as I can tell) being done now. The pope very publically apologized for the way the abuse cases were handled when he made a trip to the US a year or so ago, and he also made a point of meeting with victims privately in DC. That's the public gesture. He also audited US seminaries, which sends another type of message.
Do I think the problem is solved? No. I know there are still priests out there who are not good priests. But I think it is a lot less likely that anyone is going to shelter and enable them when they are found out now. So...work is being done. In my own diocese, the names of everyone who had creditably been accused of abuse were published in the newspaper in 2003, along with where they had been stationed and in what years. That's...about as transparent as you can be. A priest who was found to have had an affair with an adult woman 30 years ago was immediately removed from his parish when that came to the attention of the Archdiocese. Is this the best way of dealing with this situation? Perhaps not. But I know people aren't just holding their breaths and waiting for the reporters to go away - policies are being changed, and everyone is much more aware of the dangers.
We're not going to stop child sex abuse any time soon, unfortunately. And I do find it...very, very saddening that the Church didn't do more to stop these things from happening.
But to answer your question, Jewel - I am a Catholic because Catholicism is true. Bad men do not make it less true. The Church does pass through some pretty rough patches in history, and then renewal is necessary. I think it has been very clear to me for a long time that the Church needs renewal badly. An eleventh century clergyman lamented that it was better to have good priests than many priests. I agree with him. Holiness in the priesthood is never something to take for granted.
I would not leave the Catholic Church if my parish priest were a bad priest, though. Not all victims of abuse left the Church as a result of what happened to them - so they must see something worth staying for!
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nerdanel
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
Thanks for that, Mith. I have the same question as Jewel, mainly because many of the people to whom I’m closest are Catholic. I am against proselytization in all its forms, and I wouldn’t ever want to “change” these people - why would you want to change a fundamental aspect of someone you treasure? But I do wonder, sometimes, how they can reconcile the human failings of the Vatican - both historical and current - with their commitment to Catholicism. It is hard to ask these sensitive questions, especially in person. So I especially appreciate your sharing your perspective as one Catholic, especially in a thread which is full of (understandable) indignation regarding the Vatican’s recent conduct, and thus may not be the friendliest.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
I've never worried whether or not the environment is friendly when I share 
But for the record, I'd say both you and Jewel acknowledged that it's a rather sensitive thing to ask someone - doesn't this blatant hypocrisy make you think it's all a sham? So answering was on me, not your fault at all for raising the question. And I know it's more than morbid curiosity that makes you ask, nel. 
It's not a 'My country, right or wrong," thing. In other words, there is something there worth being loyal to, even if there is also corruption that needs to be dealt with.
Lalaith, you asked what the laity can/should do to affect change within the Church.
There is, as far as I know, no way to 'demote' a pope. The only way to leave the office is by death, though technically I suppose one could resign. The current pope is in his 80s. JPII's reign was one of the longest in history; they elected a young(-ish) man who lived to a ripe old age. Generally, they elect an older man as pope (or in the days when they selected young men, the Italian nobility took care to poison them after a few years).
So, those are your choices: patience or assassination. Obviously, the Christian response would be the former
. The idea would be to elect the next pope to address any problems seen in the way the current pope handles things. Change happens very slowly in the Church - we tend to work in generations, not years....
Any restructuring of the Vatican would be done at that level, the top. You wouldn't have lay Catholics involved in that. There are regularly changes in the Curia, though, so it's not a static thing. (Not that changes happen quickly, mind you...) One of the most likely current events to shake up the way the office of the papacy is viewed would be the gestures towards unity with the Eastern Orthodox. I'm not sure what concessions they are interested in or what concessions the Catholics would be willing to make, but in general, the Orthodox would be more willing to view the pope as 'first among equals' with the other patriarchs.
That is not to say that the laity do nothing. Obviously, as Catholics, we believe that the Church is guided (ultimately) by the Holy Spirit. Prayers are a good way to make things happen. Also, lay involvement at the parish level runs just about everything. At higher levels, there are lay people working in diocesan offices, and even the USCCB (the bishops' conference for American Catholics) has much involvement of lay people. Yes, the bishops themselves are the decision makers, but it's not unilateral.
And even at the highest levels...you do get people like St. Catherine of Sienna telling off the pope and chastising him for not doing what he's supposed to do. Reform can be initiated at all levels of the church.
I don't know much about SNAP, but I do know about Call to Action - and I don't support anything they are doing. Call to Action is a lay movement of people who were very dissatisfied with many things in the church who latched onto the sex abuse scandal in Boston as the 'last straw' and used that to motivate people to protest the Church. But really, they just seem schismatic to me. They want to change a lot of things, and seem very upset that things aren't done their way. They might be a different side of the spectrum, but they're more akin to the SSPX than anything else. I won't say that none of their complaints are valid, but most of what they want to do wouldn't be remotely Catholic. Even if they don't know it yet, what they really want to do is to start their own church.
The obvious question becomes what am *I* doing to renew the Church? I mostly work with my peers, other Catholic young adults, to help us become better Catholics, both in practice and in knowledge of the faith.
I've just finished up (as in, last night!) a small group that has been meeting at my house sporadically over the past 4 years. The group has been doing the "Why Catholic?" program put out by Renew International, an adult faith formation initiative that various dioceses use. Basically, we discuss the Catechism - the most recent sessions were on prayer, while others were on the creed, the sacraments and morality. The focus of the discussions is very much on how we live our lives, so it is meant to instigate a renewal of the parish. Very few young adults participate in these things, so hosting a group was a way to make it accessible to my age group. (The parish has 10 nursing homes within its geographic boundaries, so as you can imagine, the demographics aren't skewed in favor of the 20-somethings).
Also, I participate in a weekly meeting of young adults to discuss the Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II's teachings on Catholic theology, salvation history, the meaning of life...oh yeah, and sex. As I think someone mentioned up thread, the Catholic Church has not always done a good job of presenting human sexuality in a healthy light, so this was a much needed renewal of how we view the reality of marriage and the relationships between men and women. Catholics are good with guilt, that's true (though I have to admit, Jews have had more time to practice, so they might be better at it ), but JPII's message is incredibly hopeful. I really like his approach a lot, and feel that it can only be helpful for Catholics to learn about this. My father (and his fellow deacons) would like to incorporate the Theology of the Body into the marriage preparation meetings that engaged couples generally have before their wedding, so I think that will be a good way to reach a broader audience.
And this summer...I did something that should convince all of you here that I'm a complete nut. Or really cool. Or something. I joined the Missionaries of the Eucharist, a group of Catholic young adults who walked from Maine to New York City as a witness to the faith. We carried a cross and wore matching t-shirts, and stopped and talked to people who came up to us. It was incredible; for one thing, Vermont is just ridiculously gorgeous, even from the side of the road. And for another - I have never liked the idea of evangelization. I didn't want to go preach to people. But meeting people and just talking to them about whatever? That was awesome! I heard some interesting life stories (and yes, one of the men I met had been abused by a priest). He was a Dutch immigrant who was not happy with our health care system here, but he was incredibly at peace about his experience. He didn't want sympathy, and he said he wasn't upset with the man who had done that to him. He didn't want to let that ruin his life now, so he was choosing to be happy with the beautiful weather. I'm not conveying this man's conversation very well, but it was an awesome experience to talk to him. There was no rancor at all when he shared about that. We didn't talk about all the issues that were brought up here, of course, but if anyone was being witnessed to, it was us, not him....
Arresting people after something goes wrong is necessary, of course, but avoiding the problem in the first place is certainly better. Renewal has to happen at basic levels - parishes, schools, seminaries, etc. As more people accept the challenge to live a life of holiness, to try to love all people and respect their dignity...well, you have fewer problems that way. I can't do much about how things are handled at higher levels, but I can do what I can in my place in the Body of Christ. I know I'm not part of the central nervous system; that doesn't discourage me.
But for the record, I'd say both you and Jewel acknowledged that it's a rather sensitive thing to ask someone - doesn't this blatant hypocrisy make you think it's all a sham? So answering was on me, not your fault at all for raising the question. And I know it's more than morbid curiosity that makes you ask, nel. It's not a 'My country, right or wrong," thing. In other words, there is something there worth being loyal to, even if there is also corruption that needs to be dealt with.
Lalaith, you asked what the laity can/should do to affect change within the Church.
There is, as far as I know, no way to 'demote' a pope. The only way to leave the office is by death, though technically I suppose one could resign. The current pope is in his 80s. JPII's reign was one of the longest in history; they elected a young(-ish) man who lived to a ripe old age. Generally, they elect an older man as pope (or in the days when they selected young men, the Italian nobility took care to poison them after a few years).
So, those are your choices: patience or assassination. Obviously, the Christian response would be the former
. The idea would be to elect the next pope to address any problems seen in the way the current pope handles things. Change happens very slowly in the Church - we tend to work in generations, not years....Any restructuring of the Vatican would be done at that level, the top. You wouldn't have lay Catholics involved in that. There are regularly changes in the Curia, though, so it's not a static thing. (Not that changes happen quickly, mind you...) One of the most likely current events to shake up the way the office of the papacy is viewed would be the gestures towards unity with the Eastern Orthodox. I'm not sure what concessions they are interested in or what concessions the Catholics would be willing to make, but in general, the Orthodox would be more willing to view the pope as 'first among equals' with the other patriarchs.
That is not to say that the laity do nothing. Obviously, as Catholics, we believe that the Church is guided (ultimately) by the Holy Spirit. Prayers are a good way to make things happen.
Also, lay involvement at the parish level runs just about everything. At higher levels, there are lay people working in diocesan offices, and even the USCCB (the bishops' conference for American Catholics) has much involvement of lay people. Yes, the bishops themselves are the decision makers, but it's not unilateral. And even at the highest levels...you do get people like St. Catherine of Sienna telling off the pope and chastising him for not doing what he's supposed to do. Reform can be initiated at all levels of the church.
I don't know much about SNAP, but I do know about Call to Action - and I don't support anything they are doing. Call to Action is a lay movement of people who were very dissatisfied with many things in the church who latched onto the sex abuse scandal in Boston as the 'last straw' and used that to motivate people to protest the Church. But really, they just seem schismatic to me. They want to change a lot of things, and seem very upset that things aren't done their way. They might be a different side of the spectrum, but they're more akin to the SSPX than anything else. I won't say that none of their complaints are valid, but most of what they want to do wouldn't be remotely Catholic. Even if they don't know it yet, what they really want to do is to start their own church.
The obvious question becomes what am *I* doing to renew the Church? I mostly work with my peers, other Catholic young adults, to help us become better Catholics, both in practice and in knowledge of the faith.
I've just finished up (as in, last night!) a small group that has been meeting at my house sporadically over the past 4 years. The group has been doing the "Why Catholic?" program put out by Renew International, an adult faith formation initiative that various dioceses use. Basically, we discuss the Catechism - the most recent sessions were on prayer, while others were on the creed, the sacraments and morality. The focus of the discussions is very much on how we live our lives, so it is meant to instigate a renewal of the parish. Very few young adults participate in these things, so hosting a group was a way to make it accessible to my age group. (The parish has 10 nursing homes within its geographic boundaries, so as you can imagine, the demographics aren't skewed in favor of the 20-somethings).
Also, I participate in a weekly meeting of young adults to discuss the Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II's teachings on Catholic theology, salvation history, the meaning of life...oh yeah, and sex
. As I think someone mentioned up thread, the Catholic Church has not always done a good job of presenting human sexuality in a healthy light, so this was a much needed renewal of how we view the reality of marriage and the relationships between men and women. Catholics are good with guilt, that's true (though I have to admit, Jews have had more time to practice, so they might be better at it ), but JPII's message is incredibly hopeful. I really like his approach a lot, and feel that it can only be helpful for Catholics to learn about this. My father (and his fellow deacons) would like to incorporate the Theology of the Body into the marriage preparation meetings that engaged couples generally have before their wedding, so I think that will be a good way to reach a broader audience. And this summer...I did something that should convince all of you here that I'm a complete nut. Or really cool. Or something
. I joined the Missionaries of the Eucharist, a group of Catholic young adults who walked from Maine to New York City as a witness to the faith. We carried a cross and wore matching t-shirts, and stopped and talked to people who came up to us. It was incredible; for one thing, Vermont is just ridiculously gorgeous, even from the side of the road. And for another - I have never liked the idea of evangelization. I didn't want to go preach to people. But meeting people and just talking to them about whatever? That was awesome! I heard some interesting life stories (and yes, one of the men I met had been abused by a priest). He was a Dutch immigrant who was not happy with our health care system here, but he was incredibly at peace about his experience. He didn't want sympathy, and he said he wasn't upset with the man who had done that to him. He didn't want to let that ruin his life now, so he was choosing to be happy with the beautiful weather. I'm not conveying this man's conversation very well, but it was an awesome experience to talk to him. There was no rancor at all when he shared about that. We didn't talk about all the issues that were brought up here, of course, but if anyone was being witnessed to, it was us, not him....Arresting people after something goes wrong is necessary, of course, but avoiding the problem in the first place is certainly better. Renewal has to happen at basic levels - parishes, schools, seminaries, etc. As more people accept the challenge to live a life of holiness, to try to love all people and respect their dignity...well, you have fewer problems that way. I can't do much about how things are handled at higher levels, but I can do what I can in my place in the Body of Christ. I know I'm not part of the central nervous system; that doesn't discourage me.
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Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46163
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- Contact:
Sometimes there is no real difference.MithLuin wrote:And this summer...I did something that should convince all of you here that I'm a complete nut. Or really cool.
But for the record, that does sound really cool. I'm glad you got to have that experience."Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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narya
- chocolate bearer
- Posts: 4904
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It is easy for those on the outside to say "well, if that happened in my religion, I'd drop out of the institution immediately". But it doesn't happen that way in reality. Belonging to a church can be a very strong relationship, like you have with a spouse or parent. In my county, for example, 55% of elder abuse is committed by family members. That is to say, with intimacy comes the power to do good or evil in a much bigger way. A family member can do many horrendous things and still you stay...
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. ~ Albert Camus
Thanks! Yep, it was awesome. Kinda like joining the Fellowship of the Ring....Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:Sometimes there is no real difference.MithLuin wrote:And this summer...I did something that should convince all of you here that I'm a complete nut. Or really cool.
Yeah, church is a lot like family, isn't it? I suppose it's stuff like this thread that points out how dysfunctional that can be....but still.
)
What an adorable, fun bunch.MithLuin wrote:Demonstrating that there is no real difference between "really cool" and "really whacked", here's a snapshot of some of the people I spent time with this summer. They are all really awesome. Of course. Can't you tell?
video
I love the guy with the fake British accent going on about the moose. 
(That moose was cool! ) The response of the leaders to the last question about the hypostatic union was 
And you are right about Vermont being "ridiculously gorgeous".
I was there in summer 2002. Ahhhh ...
Anyway, to keep on topic:
Yes.narya wrote:It is easy for those on the outside to say "well, if that happened in my religion, I'd drop out of the institution immediately". But it doesn't happen that way in reality. Belonging to a church can be a very strong relationship, like you have with a spouse or parent. In my county, for example, 55% of elder abuse is committed by family members. That is to say, with intimacy comes the power to do good or evil in a much bigger way. A family member can do many horrendous things and still you stay...
And I think there is a difference between rejecting a particular church institution, or denomination, and rejecting a belief in God.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal