Why I am not a believer

Post by **vison** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:16 pm

I'm going to post a longish post here at some point, but right now my time is taken up with other stuff. Still, I thought I'd start the thread and see what happens.

The Sun of civility and thoughtfulness that illuminated the thread about "The nature of your deity" will, I hope, continue to shine its kind face here.

I know that there are several other posters here who are atheist or agnostic, and I hope they will take part.

Post by **yovargas** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:04 pm

This thread seems a lot less ripe for discussions, I'd think, cuz as many atheists like to say, the burden of proof lies on those making the claim. IOW, non-belief of stuff is the default state of mind until something convinces one otherwise.

Post by **Nin** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:53 pm

I am curious to read first what vison says.

Then only I would talk about my own path away from religion.

But: I would not say, I'm not a believer. I don' t believe in any form of God. But I do believe in a whole bunch of other things and values.

Post by **axordil** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:17 pm

non-belief of stuff is the default state of mind

I would say whatever one is raised with is the default. Belief can be inculcated from birth.

Post by **yovargas** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:20 pm

axordil wrote:I would say whatever one is raised with is the default.

Well, yeah, but who taught them.

Post by **axordil** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:33 am

yovargas wrote:
axordil wrote:I would say whatever one is raised with is the default.
Well, yeah, but who taught them.

The human propensity for assigning causation and forming patterns.

Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:38 am

My parents tried to teach me (they aren't that religious). I was catholic and lutheran. I did everything from baptism to confirmation. I was never a strong believer in things that rely on something outside of my senses (for me, it's the imagination). I have an active imagination, so if I could create all sorts of stories, games, etc, that aren't real, why did I listen to this reverend talking about a man-god that lived 2000 years ago, committed miracles (like walking on water) then, but for some reason stopped now. I asked my parents 'why' a lot whenever I was told something. By the time I was 18 and in college, I had no use for god, religion or believers (as an active part of myself). I've toyed with agnosticism because I don't know for 100% certain that I am right or wrong. I used to say, "if I can't say it does exist, how can I say it doesn't?" I've always been on the rational side and even that stopped making sense to me when I thought about other beings (Santa, characters from stories, etc...). So, then I was an atheist through and through. It saddens me that this life is it, but also encourages me to make the most of my time. I'd love to believe there is a magical aspect of me that leaves my body to a magical place where I remain for eternity, but it doesn't make any sense (to me) except to make one feel better about the impending doom we all face.

I grew up in christianity, so I learned a lot of right and wrong from that. I appreciate the lessons and morals because many are fine, but I don't believe that there must be a source outside of your own mind. Our minds are powerful and if we relied more on our thinking than on believing in another mind, we may be better off. We may not. I've been told that my reliance on my own self for right and wrong meant that I was essentially worshiping myself. I guess we just use different words.

In some respect, I think the burden is always on the believer because he or she is more active in conversion. I seek out like-minded atheists for conversation sometimes, but I don't seek to convert theists. If you leave me be, I'll leave you be. I don't see any value in atheist clubs or meetings because there is nothing to discuss--because there is nothing but our material world.

That's me.

Post by **axordil** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:12 pm

Ever look into Ethical Societies, TED? I keep thinking about hooking up with the local one here, but then I would have to get up reliably on Sunday mornings.

Post by **Dave_LF** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:27 pm

yov has the right of it. I could still say a lot on this topic if I set my mind to it, but for many people religion is identity, and it's very difficult to describe why you reject someone's identity without giving offense and ruining the civil atmosphere that this forum demands. But the short answer is that you need a reason to believe anything, and the less obvious that thing is, the better the reason needs to be. I just don't see a reason.

Post by **axordil** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:19 pm

Why should saying "I believe differently" be offensive? Why should my sense of identity impinge on yours, or vice versa?

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:06 pm

Ax, I have not looked into ethical societies. I'm unsure which ethics I'd subscribe to anyway.

Why should saying "I believe differently" be offensive? Why should my sense of identity impinge on yours, or vice versa?

Good point. Sharing your thoughts shouldn't be offensive.

Post by **axordil** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:11 pm

TED--as I understand them, the question of what ethics to subscribe to is a point of ongoing conversation there, which is one reason I thought you might be interested.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:33 pm

Whether a statement is offensive depends on the nature of the statement. "Here's what I believe and why" shouldn't offend anybody. "Here's why what you believe is stupid"* is another matter. I like to think I've got a thick skin, but there are sites with interesting political content or discussions of science that I no longer read because of the contempt for belief and believers that's constantly on display in the posts and comments. No one likes to be called stupid.

There are also sites where nonbelievers come in for contempt or (what's worse) solicitous pity. I don't read those, either.

The suggestion I'd make is that people stick to talking about their own beliefs rather than those of other people, which they may not understand as well as they think they do. (This goes for believers and nonbelievers both, of course.) As soon as you drift into characterizing other people and their beliefs rather than explaining your own, you're walking on dynamite.

*Or "Here's why you're going to Hell."

Edited to add necessary footnote

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:49 pm

axordil wrote:TED--as I understand them, the question of what ethics to subscribe to is a point of ongoing conversation there, which is one reason I thought you might be interested.

Ahhhhh! Sounds like my kind of place...

Post by **Dave_LF** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:11 pm

axordil wrote:Why should saying "I believe differently" be offensive? Why should my sense of identity impinge on yours, or vice versa?

The problem is that the name of the thread is "Why I am not a believer". It is unlikely that I could attack the factual basis of religious claims without giving offense to people whose identities are predicated on those claims. At least; it has been my experience that no matter how meticulously neutral I keep my language and tone of voice, someone gets upset anytime I claim that religion isn't true.

Post by **Frelga** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:13 pm

Sincerely stating what you believe may not be offensive as such while still being unintentionally hurtful. On another board a lovely poster once quite blithely said something like, "And the reason the Jews are cursed is..." I got a good chuckle out of it but others are more sensitive. In the same vein, I feel confident in sharing why I am Jewish but steer clear of explaining why I am not Christian. Obviously, in Christian-dominated society, I had to give some thought to the question, but sharing the answer would probably upset some nice people.

Post by **axordil** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:14 pm

Dave_LF wrote:
axordil wrote:Why should saying "I believe differently" be offensive? Why should my sense of identity impinge on yours, or vice versa?
The problem is that the name of the thread is "Why I am not a believer". It is unlikely that I could attack the factual basis of religious claims without giving offense to people whose identities are predicated on those claims. At least; it has been my experience that no matter how meticulously neutral I keep my language and tone of voice, someone gets upset anytime I claim that religion isn't true.

I think there's a step between "I don't believe because I find the factual basis lacking" and "religion isn't true." The latter is an assertion concerning an unfalsifiable, ultimately. The former is one way of reacting to the fact that we are dealing with an unfalsifiable--the others being faith and uncertainty.

So if I say "I do not believe because I don't see compelling evidence to do so," it doesn't mean someone who does feel compelled has to be wrong for me to be right. It can also mean they approach the question differently, for whatever reason. The actual truth or falsity of the question is really beside the point, as it's indeterminate.

Post by **vison** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Frelga wrote:Sincerely stating what you believe may not be offensive as such while still being unintentionally hurtful. On another board a lovely poster once quite blithely said something like, "And the reason the Jews are cursed is..." I got a good chuckle out of it but others are more sensitive. In the same vein, I feel confident in sharing why I am Jewish but steer clear of explaining why I am not Christian. Obviously, in Christian-dominated society, I had to give some thought to the question, but sharing the answer would probably upset some nice people.

Why?

Post by **Nin** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:41 pm

You first, vison....

after all, you started the thread...

( I also fear that to explain the reasons of my atheism might offend some persons here, especially as I find intercultural communication sometimes difficult and difficult to judge what is offensive to whom and see that often persons see postings as offensive where I don't see anything. I fear this, because my disbelief in God also comes from a rejection of religion.)

Post by **vison** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:44 pm

The short reason and what it all comes down to is: I see no reason to believe in a god. I guess I will still post a long post, but the long and the short of it is expressed in that short sentence.

Belief is not merely "seeing a reason" to believe in a god, though. And thereby hangs the discussion. "Need" and "desire" enter into it, don't they?