Forgiveness-- *not*

[Maria]

I was standing in line to check out at a grocery store this weekend when I was hit rather hard on the calves by a cart behind me. I turned around to see one of those huge long carts they make that look kind of like cars for kids to ride in, with a grocery area in front of it.

The woman driving immediately apologized, but I peered into the kid containment section which was empty, and blurted, "You mean you don't even have a kid in there???" I was thinking she'd just grabbed the only available cart left...

She immediately got indignant and said she did have a child walking in the aisle immediately adjacent to us, and why did it matter whether or not she had a child or not? She'd said she was sorry, hadn't she???

I turned around and unloaded my cart onto the belt, and when I looked back again, she'd moved into a different lane, but I was puzzled: Why did she get angry at my comment?

Why is there an expectation of immediate forgiveness on her part? That impact hurt! Why did she get mad when I presumed to find out whether she deserved forgiveness or not? It was a simple matter in my mind. If she'd only gotten the monster cart because it was the last one available (and carts were in short supply that day) and thus deprived someone who needed the kiddy cart and then rammed me in the legs out of pure incompetance-- then, no, I wasn't ready to forgive her.

If, however, she'd been preoccupied by tending children in a crowded grocery store and hit me, well, that's kind of understandable. Kids are hard to keep under control and are .... well... distracting to say the least.

But, I really don't understand why she got angry. Is it some cultural thing I don't get?

[nerdanel]

If she'd only gotten the monster cart because it was the last one available (and carts were in short supply that day) and thus deprived someone who needed the kiddy cart and then rammed me in the legs out of pure incompetance-- then, no, I wasn't ready to forgive her.

Well, if carts were in short supply that day, then I'd say that someone who (a) needed a cart but (b) didn't have a kid would be perfectly justified in taking the last cart, even if they didn't have a kid (and moreover, would be justified in getting annoyed at having to use an unwieldly "kiddy cart" if the store was overemphasizing catering to parents with small kids over other types of customers.)

But, at the end of the day: we all will, at some point in our lives, poorly handle a shopping cart or some other type of implement. At that point, all we can do is sincerely express our regret to the person we hurt and move on. To be completely honest, if I was in her situation, after expressing my regret that I had hurt someone else, I would have very little interest in hashing out with that person whether I "deserved" forgiveness, particularly regarding whether I was using an appropriate type of cart. I don't think it's a question of being "entitled" to immediate forgiveness, it's just that there's not very much that the shopping-cart-assailant can do beyond expressing regret in that case (unless the "victim" had been hurt badly enough to need medical attention, which it sounds like was not the case here.)

[Teremia]

I think when we bump into someone, we feel very awkward about it on some deep level (could call it "guilt"! but even before guilt, there's just an awkward, bad feeling) -- and so we all want OUT of that awkward feeling.

She apologized -- but then you were still mad! So the awkwardness doesn't dissipate! And then, being human, she would probably flip over to trying to get out of the awkward feeling by switching to the interpretation that you were taking things too far -- at least, that's my guess.

There was a ruckus after my local Quaker meeting this past Sunday when a person who comes in a wheelchair (and who is very sweet) became lividly mad at another old-timer (who is also very sweet) -- claiming that sweet old-timer #2 had not just jostled her in her chair but had punched her!! And this was so out of character on so many thousands of levels (out of character for each of the people involved, out of character for the meeting, out of character for the pacifist Quakers in general!!), that basically nobody knew what to do. The sweet old-timer #2 came quickly over to apologize, but sweet old-timer #1 was REALLY MAD!

We were all at a loss.

People are hard to figure out sometimes!

[Maria]

I didn't get mad until she verbally attacked me. I just expressed surprise there wasn't even a child in the huge cart.

But she jumped immediately into attack mode, the instant I didn't respond as she expected. I felt the need to understand the situation before I responded- but when I expressed that feeling she took offense.

I was really surprised by her reaction. I asked my husband if it was a Christian thing- was I expected to accept her apology before I felt actual forgiveness? I don't say things unless I mean them. Usually. That's the intent, anyway. I probably would have gotten to the "Aww, it's OK" phase in another second or two, if she hadn't started trying to make me the bad guy.

[yovargas]

I just expressed surprise there wasn't even a child in the huge cart.

I'm betting she misread your surprise as an attack, therefore she got defensive.

[Primula Baggins]

It is pretty customary to accept apologies when someone accidentally hurts you. It's not a Christian thing, it's etiquette. Maybe when you say, "Oh, no, it's no problem!" it's not true, but it's part of the oil that keeps the social gears turning.

[Nin]

I think you dramatize and overinterpretate- she did not hurt you on purpose, so I don't see anyway how the term of forgiveness should apply.

Did it occur to you that she was just tired? Tired after a day of work or after shopping with kid, tired for justifying for that cart, tired - which would explain why she did not control the cart well in the beginning. Just tired.

And I must say I would apologize too, of course, that's education and etiquette, but I don't see how it would involve such a strong term as "forgiveness".

[JewelSong]

My take on it.

Woman had cart with kiddie carrier for her kid.
Kid at the time was not in the cart.
Woman is tired from shopping and being with kid.
Woman accidentally hits you with cart
Woman feels stupid and clumsy.
She immediately apologizes.
Instead of accepting her apology, you comment on the fact that there is no kid in the cart.
This causes woman to feel defensive and on guard...and even more stupid.
She asks you why it is your business whether or not she has a kid in there.
She already apologized for her clumsiness and now feels very awkward and a bit angry herself.
She moves to a different line so she doesn't have to deal with you and any more questions that are none of your business.

The end.

The question of whether she "deserves" your forgiveness for accidentally bumping you seems a bit odd to me. So - if you don't forgive her, then what? Are you going to crash your cart into her now?

If I had seen the cart with no kid, I would have assumed there was a kid around somewhere. Your comment ("You mean you don't even have a kid in there?") was a loaded one and I don't blame the woman for being defensive.

[River]

She got angry because she felt judged. People don't like that feeling, especially if they haven't offered themselves up for it. She may have also been having a bad day on top of the awkward cart and squirmy kid she had to let out of the cart. Or maybe she was lying about the kid; she just had the enormous cart because it was the only one available and her schedule was such that she needed to get her shopping done in that block of time that day (grocery shopping is a major PITA). So now she's doing her shopping with the kiddie cart but no kid and she's feeling awkward about that and awkward with the cart in general and wham, she hurts someone and feels bad about it and then that someone does exactly what she was fearing from the moment she got stuck with the dumb cart in the first place: judges her.

If I were her, I'd revert to my old habit of shopping after 10 pm (unless the stores are closed) after an encounter like that. Yes, at that hour, the shelves are badly stocked. The produce is completely picked over. Sometimes you have to wait around for a clerk to show up so you can buy your food. But at least there aren't lines, the carts are plentiful, and the people are scarce. Not only are the people scarce, but my finding is the late night crowd at the supermarket justwantstobeleftalonepleasethankyou as much as I do. Possibly even moreso.

[nerdanel]

And I must say I would apologize too, of course, that's education and etiquette, but I don't see how it would involve such a strong term as "forgiveness".

I agree strongly with this. Using the word "forgiveness" in this case almost seems to trivialize the concept. Seriously: we all bump into people in a way that causes pain/discomfort short of injury, we apologize, we move on. The concept of "forgiveness" is nearly irrelevant.

Now, if someone caused pain/discomfort and chose not to apologize, then we might consider whether to forgive them in absentia for their thoughtlessness/lack of concern (though it's still a trivial enough incident that it doesn't merit overanalysis.)

@ River - I always shop in the last half an hour before a store closes, especially at Target and Whole Foods (was at Whole Foods at 9:45 last night, actually, and grabbed some stuff at Safeway at 12:45 AM the night before.) There's silence, very few people, usually no children, plenty of carts and parking -- makes for a pleasant and rapid shopping experience.

[River]

In some ways, one of the worst days of my life was when the local Safeway started staying open around the clock. When I went grocery shopping at 1 am, I knew that at least one or two things about my life had gotten out of hand. Give me an inch and I'll take a mile.

[JewelSong]

I shop on line and have the groceries delivered.

No fuss, no muss, no stress, no mess.



(First time I did this, when the kids were small, I ordered $250 worth of groceries and when the guy actually brought my entire order up to my second floor kitchen I almost kissed him on the spot!)

[MithLuin]

To be fair, Maria, getting rammed with a shopping cart is an unpleasant experience. It would be natural to snap something like "Hey! Watch where you're going!" when someone does that to you. So, naturally, you thought you were being polite, all things considered.

She was likely embarrassed and defensive, and went off to find the missing kid in question. Also, maybe there was a shorter line.


Alternatively, you imagined the entire encounter - she was never there

[Maria]

I was taught in the Army there's no such thing as a real accident. Someone is always at fault by not being careful enough- either by not doing proper preventive maintenance on their vehicle, or by not following proper procedures or by sheer inattentiveness.

My automatic reaction when something goes wrong like that is to evaluate the problem. So, I looked for the presumably bratty children who were distracting the parent from her proper duties as vehicle operator.

There were apparently none. I was confused. Why did she ram me? Some mentally disturbed people might do that on purpose.... was this such a case? What could possibly be going on in her head to do such a thing?

Hence, the blurted objection, which the person took offense at.



I'm usually much more aware in crowded situations. I usually know how close someone is behind me and move to avoid if they get close. It's nearly unprecedented for me to be completely unaware that someone was in line behind me, much less close enough to touch. I've been working to decrease my hypersensitivity in crowds- and apparently it's working- or my proximity alarms would have gone off in time. I see now that it was an odd situation for me and disturbing on many more levels than simply being bruised a tad.

Her reaction was normal for the situation. My deliberate self blindness to potential hazards was new to me, and upsetting to whatever part of my psyche set up the hypervigilance in the first place.

Maybe I should rethink the whole *letting my defenses down* thing.... it's obviously upsetting to some part of my mind, since the incident bothered me enough to bring it up here.

Thanks for listening. I don't think I'd have muddled through this without your help, everyone.

edited to add: In other words, I was probably more upset by being taken by surprise than by anything she said or did, but I didn't realize it at the time. "Forgiveness" wasn't the issue at all.

[Frelga]

Well that other lady wasn't very gracious either, but then it's hard to be gracious in the face of a direct accusation. Now had it been Frelga in one of her moods, you may have gotten a from her. "What do you mean, no kid? Oh my god, where is my kid?"

Maria, you are right about carelessness. I do think that military thinking is all very well for the military, but a grocery store requires less precision and vigilance and more "we are all in it together so let's take it easy" kind of feeling.

[JewelSong]

I have had people react that way as well...once when I was trying to squeeze down a row of seats for a performance, I accidentally bumped a guy in the row in front with my bag. He turned around and said, "You hit me with your bag!" I hadn't even realized, so I was very apologetic and said, "Oh, I am SO sorry, honestly, I was just trying to get to my seat! I am very sorry!"

But he would NOT let up. He kept repeating, "You hit my head! Your bag hit my right in the head! You bumped me! With your bag!"

Finally I just said, "Yes. I bumped you. With my bag. It was an accident. I have apologized. I am finished now."

I think it might have ruined his evening, but what can you do? In a crowded place, people bump other people by mistake!

[Maria]

In a crowded place, people bump other people by mistake!

Now here's where I think the big conceptual divide comes in. Some people (like me and my husband) are always extremely aware of their surroundings. (At least I was until I started fiddling with it). We can't be sneaked up upon. (or would that be "snuck"?) I have a coworker who jumps and starts if you aren't loud about walking up behind her. That never happens with me. (until now) I always know when someone is in the room with me, where other people are, without seeing or even hearing them consciously.

It's just the way I am. It's nearly impossible for me to bump into someone by mistake. It's hard to realize sometimes that other people aren't this way. I know most aren't, I don't know why, but they aren't and I try to make allowances, but sometimes I forget.

I do bump into doorways a lot. But never people.

[River]

I have a coworker who jumps and starts if you aren't loud about walking up behind her.

I do that. Even when I actually know someone's there I'll still wig out if they say my name (seriously, I hear them coming, I sort of feel them behind me or to the side and they say "River" and I startle). Most of the time I can sort of keep a lid on it, but sometimes I don't. I share office space with a fellow post-doc. He startles me, I yelp, and that scares him. One day the boss will walk in and find us dead on the floor because we gave each other heart attacks.

Incidentally, this is why I prefer it if someone knocks first before coming into a room I'm in, or knocks on the shelf or desk if I'm out in the lab. This give me that critical half-second to put the panic away. I try to set a positive example of this behavior by treating my fellows like they're as anxious as I am. It sort of works.

But I don't tend to run into people. Sometimes I'll get tossed around in a crowd, but if it's up to me I'd just as soon maintain my space.

[Maria]

I'd attribute the whole phenomenon to a warrior thing, a cat-like grace, except for my propensity for bashing into door frames at work.

But, seriously, I do have a tendancy to keep an eye on everything around me, especially in public, and in crowded situations this jacks up my anxiety level to uncomfortable levels. So, I've been trying to desensitize myself and it's working, but I was surprised and got defensive on my own. Now that I think about it, the whole,"You mean you don't even have a kid in there???" comment wasn't innocent surprise at all. The subtext was, "You are an idiot, and you don't even have kids to blame your incompetance on. What the heck are you doing with that cart you can't manage, anyway?"

Maybe I should have just said that. It would have been more honest.

[vison]

I'm like River. Even when I know someone's there, I jump. Tay gives me about 5 heart attacks a day, laying in wait for me when I come out of the bathroom.