Heathens

[Primula Baggins]

Well, consider what most Americans think of or have seen in association with "atheism." Madelyn Murray O'Hare and her fellow fanatics, not the ordinary quiet atheist. People tend to be annoyed by other people yelling at them about what they should or should not believe. Ordinary people yelled at by "born-again Christian fanatics" are no less annoyed than other ordinary people yelled at by atheist fanatics.

And it's the fanatics that stick in the mind. O'Hare et al. are more memorable than ordinary people who are atheists, just as some of the more intense "born-again" Christians are more annoying to unbelievers than is the average Christian.

[Dave_LF]

I don't know... It's certainly true that fanatics get the most attention, but I don't think most Americans even know who O'Hare is. And in the fanaticism department, radical atheism can't hold a candle to radical Islam (for example). Nevertheless, atheists are disliked more the Muslims.

I kind of feel like I'm sidetracking the thread here; maybe this should move to "do you believe in God?" Or to Lasto Beth Lammen?

[Ethel]

I don't know... It's certainly true that fanatics get the most attention, but I don't think most Americans even know who O'Hare is.

Maybe not now, but back when the Supreme Court outlawed (mandatory) prayer in schools, everyone knew who she was. And I think her name was spelled O'Hair - which I find creepy for no reason I can explain.

[Primula Baggins]

O'Hair! That was it. And it is a creepy name for some reason.

[Nin]

Once the atoms that are my fingernails were part of a supernova. Once my eyelashes were carried in waves to the shore of some fabulous planet with red skies and inhabited by tall, graceful creatures evolved from birds. Once my heart was part of an interstellar craft caught in a black hole, and as the craft stretched and broke up, the various atoms drifted for eons until they fell as meteor dust over Gondwanaland.

I bet the same kind of thing happened to everyone here.

Only you guys don't remember it.

eta: Evidently Impenitent does!!!

I think we all do, if we let ourselves.

Vison, this is so beautiful... it's so true. I told it my children that way: in the end we are all the same. All stardust.

[Teremia]

I love vison's image. Just not entirely sure about one thing: seems to me unlikely that the dust from an "interstellar craft caught in a black hole" is EVER going to get as far as, say, out of the black hole, much less to Gondwanaland.

But perhaps the spacecraft broke up before passing the black hole's event horizon?

[Primula Baggins]

Sure—ripped apart by tidal forces.

Stands to reason.

[TIGG]

A recent survey found that atheists are the most hated group in America.
University Of MN

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

thats not very 'christian' is it?

I don't beleive, but I don't dislike/hate anyone who does. I find ti incredibly disturbing the lengths people will go for in pursuit or defence of their religion.

a friend had a t-shirt made:

"tattooed people don't look down on non-tattooed people".
this could as easily apply to Religion.

prejudice, that's sad

[Meneltarma]

Bah. We don't want to marry into their families anyway.

I find it almost comfotable to see there's at least one group rated below the muslims on that list.

[nerdanel]

[This thread was split into a new topic just before nerdanel's post. The last comments in her post refers to the new topic, found here: http://www.thehalloffire.net/forum/view ... 7081#17081 Thanks to nerdanel for hosting this note. Jn]
___________________________________________________________

Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.”

I hate with a passion this phrasing of the survey results. It reads as if to say, "Americans, who by the way are not atheists, Muslims, recent immigrants, gays, lesbians, or other minority groups," etc.

That semantic quibble aside, I think that if "Americans" refers to "at least moderately religious Americans" (as opposed to those pesky fake agnostic and atheist Americans), I think that these "Americans" are reasonable to say that there may be considerable gaps between their personal, idealized vision of America and the personal visions of many agnostics and atheists.

Speaking purely from anecdotal experience and painting with my broadest brush, my personal experience is that people who identify within the Judeo-Christian spectrum seem less likely to be bothered by a pledge including the words "under God", the notion of school prayer that invokes a generic "God" rather than a more specific deity, PDRs (public displays of [Jewish or Christian] religion), "In God we trust" on currency, wishing everyone a "Merry Christmas" regardless of whether they celebrate Christmas, and so on. People outside of that spectrum, including atheists, seem more likely to be troubled by any or all of these things.

Even if people could overlook the internal differences in philosophy, which are huge, these external differences, which have been well publicized in recent years, probably suggest to many people that "atheists" as a unitary group have a very different vision of America. Certainly this suggestion is somewhat misguided, as many atheists are completely indifferent to all these things which have been so well-reported in the media. But it is easy to see why one could conclude otherwise.

EDIT Hobby, I don't think that as a people (whether a country or a religion) we are defined by our lowest moments. And of course, we do not bear any sort of individualized responsibility for things that happened before our birth. But that said, our people's lowest moments ARE a part of our history and identity. Americans cannot define themselves as being other than a people who have a shameful history of African slavery and Native American genocide, i.e. we can't say, "Yes, that happened, but those people who did those horrible things didn't understand what it meant to be American. They didn't understand our ideals, and so were not truly American in some metaphysical sense." Nonsense. Of course they were Americans. And their actions are in some sense a part of our identity and a part of our legacy. If we are willing to embrace the proud moments in America's past - and there are many - than it would be utterly nonsensical to deny the far more unpleasant ones, in any sense (including the "well, they weren't REALLY part of us" distinction that Christians so often use). If the analogy fits, use it; if not, don't. I know there are ways to distinguish Christianity and the sordid moments in its past, but I am not sure I am willing to subscribe to them.

EDIT 2 What the heck? This is probably my worst-typed post ever. Major grammar edit.

[Ethel]

Would it be possible to change the direction of this thread to what moves and inspires those of us who do not subscribe to organized religion?

I mean, I'm taking it on faith that it will be a good thing to meet up with some 'imaginary' friends in Edinburgh. I really want this to work; I've spent a lot of money on airfare and lodging.

But maybe it won't. Well, then I'll have to deal with it, won't I? I kind of have a theory that meeting internet friends is much less demanding than meeting internet lovers - though the lovers have a track record.

I have staked 8 days of vacation and the cost of airfare and lodging on the idea that it will be good to meet with internet friends.

But it may not. Stuff happens.

Would appreciate any good thoughts from the heathens. Part of me thinks this will be the best vacation ever. Another part of me thinks I have condemned myself to a week of People Hell. I can't help it! People scare me.

[vison]

Ethel, you are gonna have a blast.

Let 'er rip, girlfriend.

[Erunáme]

Don't know if you'll read this: I'm quite sure you'll have a lot of fun. You'll be hanging out with some excellent people. Hopefully this moot will change your mind about future moots.

[Ethel]

Well, I got a PM explaining how objectionable my post was, and how it had been edited. Okay. So be it. You know, you are lovely people, here. But the truth is, I am stumped as to how to interact with y'all without giving offense.

Yeah.

In a way, it's great. It's just like interacting with my family: whatever I do is wrong.

Probably this thread should be locked. It really doesn't belong here.

I think I'll just go stab myself in the eye, okay?

[Erunáme]

Wish someone would do some explaining....

[Erunáme]

Guess that ain't going to happen.

Secrecy sucks.

[Ethel]

I request this thread be locked.

[Jnyusa]

SHIRRIFF POST:

I edited from Ethel's post a superfluous sentence aimed at a religious group which I was afraid would inflame some tempers.

This forum has had several blow-ups that have threatened the fragile balance here, and right now all of the Shirriffs are being extra-sensitive to how words might be received by others.

I do appreciate everyone taking extra care how to word things and not make casual comments about any religious group that are likely to cause offense while some of us are still smarting from the last few misunderstandings.

Thanks.

Jn

[Ethel]

I request this thread be locked.

[Jnyusa]

I saw your request in the Grubb forum, Ethel, and answered you there.

Jn