Heathens

[Ethel]

I thought it might be okay for the "non believers" to have thread here. You'll tell me if I'm wrong. I use the word Heathen. There's a little bit of humor there, but only a little. I'm not comfortable with the word "atheist" because... well... it depends how you define God whether I believe or not. A personal God who watches over ever move you make? No, I can't buy that. But... there are complicated and powerful forces at work in the universe. The force that encourages matter to coalesce into stars and planets. The force that encourages life forms to become ever more complex. The 'organizing' force, if you will. One possible spiritual duality is between the force that 'organizes'; that nudges and encourages life forms to become more complex... versus entropy. If the complexity force is God, I'm not an atheist.

I'm also uncomfortable with the word "agnostic." Harder to explain why, but I think it has a lot to do with a Monty Python sketch in which Eric Idle intones, "There is NOTHING an agnostic cannot do if he REALLY doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not!"

I rejected the Christian religion I was brought up with. This was not done lightly or without pain. Every time someone I love dies, I wish I could believe again. (Even though some of them were not believers themselves, meaning... well... let's don't go there again.)

I believe that when you die, that's the end. That this one life is all we have. And that's a terrible belief in some ways, because so many people get dealt a bad hand.

Yet life is infinitely precious. It is a miracle. We must cherish it. It is, and forgive me the usage, sacred. Life springs eternal. I am filled with awe when I see blades of grass growing in a seam of concrete. I want to tell it: "You have no hope here! Look for some topsoil!" But it is not in the nature of life to look for the best possibilities. Life is extravagant. It throws itself everywhere, gives up where it can't advance, and rejoices in its successes by replicating.

One of the difficulties of having rejected organized religion is that one must make up one's spiritual framework more or less from scratch. I don't think I've done a very great job of it. I only... cherish beauty, and the natural world, and love between human beings. I have no sacred texts. No rituals. And I miss that, but it's my fate to never be comfortable as part of any group.

I am 54 years old. Old enough to be looking death in the face. I do not fear it. I fear pain, as any sane person does. But not death. It will come when it comes. I will leave behind a legacy of friends and family, and one very much loved son. For me, this is enough.

[Primula Baggins]

Ethel, you're not a "heathen," you're a human being. People should not be defined by their beliefs, or let themselves be defined that way. Whatever we believe or don't, we all have our own reactions to the world and our own ways of being with other people.

Thanks for posting that.

[Ethel]

Ethel, you're not a "heathen," you're a human being.

Sure. As you are a human being first, before being a Christian. But the Christian part is very important to you. Heathen is the word I have chosen for myself, as an outsider in a particularly religious society. One that values Christian but not many other religious beliefs.

If you are a Christian, I am a Heathen.

My older brother, a very troubled human being, found a transcendent and amazing peace near the end of his life within the context of Native American beliefs. He was a heathen too. The word means something to me - it was not chosen out of self hatred. It means belief systems outside patriarchal religion. Unaccepted, dishonored, perceived as worthless.

I'm quite comfortable with being a heathen.

[Primula Baggins]

Any word you choose for yourself is fine with me, naturally; it's your choice. But "unaccepted, dishonored, perceived as worthless" is I think inaccurate and unfortunate. I would hope you would not perceive any aspect of yourself in that way, or accept such a perception from anyone else. It isn't true or healthy.

[Griffon64]

As long as you are OK with the fact that I'm not perceiving your "belief system" as It means belief systems outside patriarchal religion. Unaccepted, dishonored, perceived as worthless, if that is part of what the name "heathen" means to you.

I'm a Christian that doesn't make that connection with the word "heathen". I have more complex thoughts on it that I won't clutter on with now

You, and every other being on this planet, are welcome to belong to a group, or not, as you say your fate seems to be. Same as those who DO belong in a group, who do find companionship in shared faith or religion etc, are doing no wrong.

[Cerin]

But "unaccepted, dishonored, perceived as worthless" is I think inaccurate and unfortunate. I would hope you would not perceive any aspect of yourself in that way, or accept such a perception from anyone else. It isn't true or healthy.

I didn't think Ethel meant she perceives herself that way. I think she's saying she wants to be identified with those beliefs that she sees patriarchal religions rejecting as worthless, because she doesn't accept that estimation.

[Griffon64]

Cerin - that's how I understand what Ethel means, too - you are just way more articulate than me!

But, now: I don't reject non-Christian beliefs as worthless, etc. Yet, I am a Christian. Do I identify under "heathen" in this context, too, I wonder?

As a quick sentence or two about "heathen" - I guess I attach a weird sort of meaning to it. To me, a heathen is someone who stands for everything God is not. And for me, God is about love. Forget anything else, forget heaven and hell, salvation and damnation as dogma defines it. God is primarily about love. So a heathen to me is a loveless person - one who cares nothing for other people, or for animals, or for the beauty of nature. Orc-like, I suppose

I'm not saying anything here that is not specific to me - I'm just musing on about what the word "heathen" means to me.

[Nin]

I think I qualify for heathen as does Ethel and even my belief system is probably close to it.

I will try to tell more about it, but I often describe myself as a heathen too. (I just use the French word: païen or the German word: Heide)

[JewelSong]

From dictionary.com

hea·then
n. pl. hea·thens or heathen
1. One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
2. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.


So, firstly, a "heathen" means a person who is not from the Judeo-Christian or Islam faith. This would mean most of the Eastern religions, the Native-Americans, some tribal beliefs and anything else that doesn't fit into the mold.

Second, a "heathen" means someone who has no religion - ie, the "godless" heathen.

I suppose the second has more of a negative connotation than the first. I think, however, the word "heathen" denotes someone who has not yet been converted.

heathen
adj : not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam n : a person who does not acknowledge your God

Also, there is this:

heathen

(Heb. plural goyum). At first the word goyim denoted generally all the nations of the world (Gen. 18:18; comp. Gal. 3:8).

The Jews afterwards became a people distinguished in a marked manner from the other goyim.They were a separate people (Lev. 20:23; 26:14-45; Deut. 28), and the other nations, the Amorites, Hittites, etc., were the goyim, the heathen, with whom the Jews were forbidden to be associated in any way (Josh. 23:7; 1 Kings 11:2).

The practice of idolatry was the characteristic of these nations, and hence the word came to designate idolaters (Ps. 106:47; Jer. 46:28; Lam. 1:3; Isa. 36:18) and the wicked. (Ps. 9:5, 15, 17).

The corresponding Greek word in the New Testament, ethne, has similar shades of meaning.

In Acts 22:21, Gal. 3:14, it denotes the people of the earth generally; and in Matt. 6:7, an idolater.

In modern usage the word denotes all nations that are strangers to revealed religion.

So, Ethel's definition is right on the mark, in many ways. And I have found that many labels are what we make of them...and most can have both positive and negative associations...depending on how we use them, who is doing the using and why.

[truehobbit]

Heathen is a very difficult word.

In its neutral meaning, you could say it's just someone who is not a Christian.
In the more general meaning, it's someone who does not adhere to a monotheistical religion.
But it's never used in its neutral meaning. It has gained a pejorative sense.
I might call someone a heathen in jest, but not seriously.

Of course, there's also the trend of new paganism. People who believe in ancient deities, especially celtic and germanic ones, call themselves heathens. I guess that's ok, but I wouldn't use the word anyway.
It's a bit like what I hear of Afro-Americans calling themselves the name we have banned on our board, IMO.

So, I think you are right Jewel in saying that it can be both neutral and pejoritive, but I think that this limits the way in which we can use it.
If a word is pejoritive in some contexts, I think it's not advisable to use it to describe others, no matter whether you yourself use it only in a neutral way. Using it to describe yourself is a different matter, of course, but you have to be prepared to get reactions you weren't looking for.

(Which might be a good opportunity to mention that the same problem exists for the word "gentile", which people here are happy to throw around. I'd meant for some time to say that I'm rather uncomfortable with it and would prefer not to be called that. I know it's not meant in a bad way, that's why I didn't say anything earlier, but I still have a problem with its possible negative connotations. )

[JewelSong]

Hobby, I have never heard of any negative connotations associated with the word "gentile." It is used in the Bible quite a bit and simply means "not Jewish."

Where/how have you heard it used negatively? (As I said, I suppose any word can be used as an insult...but "gentile" has never been one of them in my own experience.)

Would you prefer "Jewish" and "non-Jewish?"

"Heathen" does have negative associations...mostly because you often see it with the word "godless" in front of it. It has come to mean someone unrefined, uncouth and primitive.

But again, if Ethel wants to humorously call herself that, I have no problem with it!

[Meneltarma]

Some of us would prefer it if "godless" did not have connotations of unrefinedness, uncouthness (is that a word?) etc. I myself am extremely cultured.

Seriously though, while calling oneself a heathen may be rather humourous, I think there's far more to it than that. I see it the way Cerin explained it, I think she's saying she wants to be identified with those beliefs that she sees patriarchal religions rejecting as worthless, because she doesn't accept that estimation.

From what you say in your first post, ethel, my beliefs are very similar to yours.

[nerdanel]

I posted a few times on Manwë about the idea of reclaiming words, and on a small scale, Ethel's self-definition with "heathen" strikes me as an attempt to do that. I could be wrong.

[Primula Baggins]

Reclaiming words is good. We are losing so many good ones these days.

I once had a conversation on that subject with a pagan friend about the word "pagan," and remarked that for me it had a connotation of people who painted themselves and danced naked in the woods. She laughed and told me that at the last solstice, she and her friends had done precisely that.

That's reclaiming not just a word, but the "pejorative" connotation as well.

It was a winter solstice, by the way—brrr!

[anthriel]

As long as you are OK with the fact that I'm not perceiving your "belief system" as It means belief systems outside patriarchal religion. Unaccepted, dishonored, perceived as worthless, if that is part of what the name "heathen" means to you.

I'm a Christian that doesn't make that connection with the word "heathen". I have more complex thoughts on it that I won't clutter on with now

You, and every other being on this planet, are welcome to belong to a group, or not, as you say your fate seems to be. Same as those who DO belong in a group, who do find companionship in shared faith or religion etc, are doing no wrong.

What Griffy said.

[vison]

I'm a Heathen, too. But I'm a very lucky Heathen, in that I had no religion to reject.

I suppose that might be seen as insulting to religion, so I will say, it's not meant as an insult, but as the plain truth. And I do regard it as luck, since it obviously saved me a lot of suffering and angst.

Heathen, in the sense of "not accepting the god of Christianity, Islam, or Judaism", does not please me. That sense does, indeed, imply "not yet converted".

Heathen, in the sense of "godless" pleases me.

Still, we have:

Some of us would prefer it if "godless" did not have connotations of unrefinedness, uncouthness (is that a word?) etc. I myself am extremely cultured.

I won't say I am as cultured as the sweet and lovely Meneltarma (and I am sincere, not joking). But indeed here on HoF as elsewhere, one gets the sense, or at least this one does, that to be a "godless heathen" is to be a SAVAGE.

There might be a better or more accurate word to describe me, but for now I will take the label "Heathen" on myself. And, further, I am agnostic, that term also describes me quite accurately so far as it goes.

[Nin]

I like to use the word heathen for myself – as non-believer in a monotheist God or any form of deities, opposed to pagan which would be the one who believes in other, maybe more ancient deities.

I come from a non-practicing lutherian family. I received some religious instruction in my childhood and youth, but never any incitation to practise. Since I can remember I wondered about spiritual aspects, though. Like vison, I had no religion to reject, but one to construct and I consider this as a chance too – I have given much thought to my beliefs and I took none of them lightly, nor do I consider them as unchangeable or necessarily right, and most of all not above of those of others, which is in my experience often the case of established religions.

In the end, somehow I constructed my own system of belief. Maybe in Europe it’s easier not to be a member of a group as in daily life, religion does not have so much importance. I don’t believe in any concrete, touchable form of God, any form which would speak to humanity, address it, give moral laws to mankind. I think somehow if God does exist, he only exists through us, human beings. On this earth, there is nothing more divine than mankind. Like Ethel, I think there are superior forces or spiritual powers at work somewhere, somehow in this universe – those who bring material together, something which you feel outpasses yourself at moments completely. I cannot put a name on those forces, but I can tell I believe in their existence. I do personally not believe in any of the prophets and doubt that even as a historical person, Jesus Christ has lived.

For me, humanity is so precious, and every human life is so precious because it seems to me that mankind has this ability to feel, to conceive, maybe even to understand “the divine”. Religions have been among the most powerful (and immoral) institutions that mankind has invented, and it is a sign that since the night of time, humans have tried to understand what is the driving force behind the universe. I don’t think that there is an answer, except the knowledge that there might really be some force.

Life in general is precious – as all forms of life are made of the same essence, stardust, if you want. I admire the strength of life, even of the will to live of ordinary human beings which has allowed humans to survive the most hopeless, the most bitter situations. Therefore I am for instance very strongly opposed to death penalty. But at the same time, I think that life has to be a conscious choice and that each of us has the right to end life when he wants and I also believe that life has to be conscious to be able to grasp a glimpse of what I call the divine essence.

I see ways of feeling this divine touch of which humanity is able – music, art, beauty, love. I think of the words of Mozart: “Mann und Weib und Weib und Mann reichen an die Gottheit an.” (Man and woman and woman and man reach divinity... or something close to it). As said before and elsewhere too, I don’t believe in any form of afterlife. This is the only chance we get, and it makes life even more precious to me… every moment of every life is unique and will never come back. Every moment counts. I try to remember that every day.

Why do I feel the need to type all this? I am not sure… However, I also claim the word heathen for me, maybe also in the sense of opposition to institutional religion which I reject and from which I often feel moralized. In German, two words come from heathen - Heidenspass und Heidenangst – fun like heathens or fear like heathens – I think it is not by chance… maybe the envy of Christians of the so called heathens or pagans, not prisoner in the moral corset that has been Christianity in my humble opinion for centuries – but at the same time living with the eternal fear of being damned – or just with the fear of doubt. But all this is just my personal and humble opinion, I don’t claim to be right over anyone else.

[Cerin]

not prisoner in the moral corset that has been Christianity in my humble opinion for centuries – but at the same time living with the eternal fear of being damned

I just wanted to quietly say that this does not describe the mentality or experience of my Christianity. It is in fact, the opposite. If I had to choose one word to describe the feeling of my Christianity, it would be -- freedom. Freedom from guilt, from fear, from burden. 'His yoke is easy, and His burden is light'.

[vison]

Excellent post, Nin, and articulates much of what I think and feel.

I think that the word "divine" is just the word we have come up with to describe that sublime feeling or state when we are "as one" with the rest of the universe. I wonder, at times, if at a cellular level we recognize or intuit the beginning of things? It's all there, in us. Maybe at times we dig that deep.

[Nin]

Thank you, vison - yes, I think too that sometimes wo go that deep.

Cerin - I am a historian. Recently we have worked about processes of sorcery - and if you see the judgement about women, christianity has been for centuries a moral corset. The two words I quote are ancient words - in order to understand them, you have to go back to the MiddleAges and the definition of christianity then. And maybe I would see in all religions a moral corset as I don't think that there is any divine justification behind so called moral laws.