On another forum I visit, there is some discussion of the amazing story about the plane crash in New York.
Now - don't get me wrong, please, I was moved to tears when I saw the story on TV, I tuned it at the point where it was announced that everyone had survived. A wonderful outcome!! One of my baseball friends is a captain for Air Canada, he flies "heavies" himself, and he couldn't say enough in praise of the pilot's skill and daring.
But on this other site there are about a zillion posts saying that god MUST have intervened to save these people. The accident and its happy ending is being proposed as "proof" that god exists, since it was "obvious" to these people that "something was holding the wings up". It is being called a Miracle.
Well, I can't post on that thread in the other forum, because I would just be raining on their little parade and they'd get all bent out of shape. But what I want to know is, don't they know what they're saying? God chose to save these people, for some reason.
God didn't save the people in the plane that crashed in the Potomac, years ago. Actually, this god hardly ever does stuff like this. Usually when a big plane goes down, everyone is toast.
Millions of innocent people all around the world, many of them Christians, suffer agonies, are tormented by evil men or by disease, are killed, subjected to all the horrors of vile dictatorships and/or war. Good people, some saintly in their goodness. Babies and little children. Old ladies. Teachers, priests, scholars, doctors. Pfffttt!!! Dead. Where was god then? Why would this god being save the lucky folks on that plane but disregard the rest?
I know why, of course. For me, it's very simple.
I am not religious, I suppose everyone that knows me knows that. But even so, it makes me squirm with unease, to see what some people make of their god.
Don't know if this will lead to any discussion or not, but I just had to say something since it drives me nutz and I don't have far to go.
Plane crash in New York
Plane crash in New York
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I think when wild and rare events happen, people feel a need rationalize it somehow. The events need both an explanation and a meaning. That it was luck, good or bad, doesn't cut it for most people because luck is meaningless. So they turn to God.
Except, in this case, I think the survival of all 155 people had as much to do with the engineering of the plane and experience of the pilot and flight crew as anything else. Planes are designed to land in water and not just sink. Also, the pilot in particular has spent a huge chunk of his professional career studying how to react to an emergency and teaching other pilots how to react to emergencies. He knew exactly what he needed to do and how to do it. And the flight attendants had the seasoning and collective force of personality to set a "Stay calm, we'll get off this plane" tone right at the start. It was bad luck the plane went down. It was good luck that the river was so handy. The rest was just skill and good design (though why they haven't managed to build a bird-proof engine is a whole other subject).
Except, in this case, I think the survival of all 155 people had as much to do with the engineering of the plane and experience of the pilot and flight crew as anything else. Planes are designed to land in water and not just sink. Also, the pilot in particular has spent a huge chunk of his professional career studying how to react to an emergency and teaching other pilots how to react to emergencies. He knew exactly what he needed to do and how to do it. And the flight attendants had the seasoning and collective force of personality to set a "Stay calm, we'll get off this plane" tone right at the start. It was bad luck the plane went down. It was good luck that the river was so handy. The rest was just skill and good design (though why they haven't managed to build a bird-proof engine is a whole other subject).
When you can do nothing what can you do?
I was just talking to a friend about this amazing event, and we agreed that what moves US to tears is how well everyone performed under pressure. The captain and the flight attendants are heroes, no doubt about it. But so is everybody else who was on that plane! They worked together, they stayed calm, and they created a miracle.
I so agree with vison about how AWFUL the underlying message is when someone says "God saved those people." So . . . . all the children who die of cancer or are killed by bombs are somehow less loved by God?
That's a terrible slander against everyone who has ever suffered, not to mention a slander against God, if you believe in God, seems to me.
I so agree with vison about how AWFUL the underlying message is when someone says "God saved those people." So . . . . all the children who die of cancer or are killed by bombs are somehow less loved by God?
That's a terrible slander against everyone who has ever suffered, not to mention a slander against God, if you believe in God, seems to me.
Re: Plane crash in New York
Seems to me this is a philosophical/spiritual discussion rather than a political one. 
I was very thankful for the courage and efficiency of that pilot and the fact that a horrible tragedy was averted by his calmness and bravery.
The problem of suffering is a biggie all right.
I'm a Christian and it didn't occur to me to think that way when I first heard of this incredible incident, i.e. it didn't occur to me to think of it as supernatural intervention. That indeed does raise a problem.vison wrote:But on this other site there are about a zillion posts saying that god MUST have intervened to save these people. The accident and its happy ending is being proposed as "proof" that god exists, since it was "obvious" to these people that "something was holding the wings up". It is being called a Miracle.
I was very thankful for the courage and efficiency of that pilot and the fact that a horrible tragedy was averted by his calmness and bravery.
The problem of suffering is a biggie all right.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... "
Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Thanks V. 
I forgot to mention that in the second photograph, the structure on the left was installed in the last 24 hrs to extract the aircraft. Very efficient.
Am unsure about whats happening right now. I can't see the aircraft's tail any more, a lot of police boats have converged. I doubt they'd have been able to take it out so soon.
I forgot to mention that in the second photograph, the structure on the left was installed in the last 24 hrs to extract the aircraft. Very efficient.
Am unsure about whats happening right now. I can't see the aircraft's tail any more, a lot of police boats have converged. I doubt they'd have been able to take it out so soon.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
I remember when I was in HS, a priest was invited to talk at our school with regards to God. What shocked everybody was when he said "God is not nice and forgiving and all that fuzzy stuff, he is in fact, an angry and jealous God." He cited some stories in the bible like the plagues, Sodom and Gamorra, the great flood etc..., if he was really a nice God he would have not done that. But eventhough, he is an angry and vengeful God he choose people who are worth saving like Noah, Moses and the choosen people etc... that's why in the end times there is a "Judgement Day", thus not all people are to be saved. He didn't even save his son on the cross why would he save all of us. Yes, God no longer saves people nor thus he appear as a burning bush or send his angels to save us. But still, something as extraordinary as this can be "called" a divine intervention since this doesn't happen everyday. Maybe, God decided to intervene that day.
I was a victim of a violent break and enter when I was a kid and I swear I do believe that I was going to die that day since they had a knife on my neck and were already deciding whether to kill me or not. I was praying (inside my head) that God will save me. I don't know what happened next but I ended up inside the closest. Up until now, my grandparents, parents and relatives think it was a miracle eventhough they also think that the robbers don't have the stomach to kill a six year old kid and two seniors (my grandparents). Maybe we were just lucky or it's divine intervention, I don't know, since most of the time a lot of people get killed when something like this happens.
For me it's like this, people believe what they want to believe. In fact, people who go to "Fatima", think that they are going to be cured. Well some do get cured, even the doctors can't explain what happened to their cancer or disease but others don't get cured, why is that? I don't have the answer. Not everyone is entitled to a miracle.
For me, it's still a combination of the divine, human and mechanical intervention. Like I said God chooses who he wants the miracle to happen, I don't know why he does this, but this is how I see it. In fact, for me it's not only the plane landing on the Hudson River was the miracle but people coming together helping each other is a manifestation that people are still good by nature. It's so sad that something awful should happen first before people realize their full potential.
I was a victim of a violent break and enter when I was a kid and I swear I do believe that I was going to die that day since they had a knife on my neck and were already deciding whether to kill me or not. I was praying (inside my head) that God will save me. I don't know what happened next but I ended up inside the closest. Up until now, my grandparents, parents and relatives think it was a miracle eventhough they also think that the robbers don't have the stomach to kill a six year old kid and two seniors (my grandparents). Maybe we were just lucky or it's divine intervention, I don't know, since most of the time a lot of people get killed when something like this happens.
For me it's like this, people believe what they want to believe. In fact, people who go to "Fatima", think that they are going to be cured. Well some do get cured, even the doctors can't explain what happened to their cancer or disease but others don't get cured, why is that? I don't have the answer. Not everyone is entitled to a miracle.
For me, it's still a combination of the divine, human and mechanical intervention. Like I said God chooses who he wants the miracle to happen, I don't know why he does this, but this is how I see it. In fact, for me it's not only the plane landing on the Hudson River was the miracle but people coming together helping each other is a manifestation that people are still good by nature. It's so sad that something awful should happen first before people realize their full potential.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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Primula Baggins
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In case anyone hasn't seen it, here's amazing footage from a Coast Guard surveillance camera:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9e6_1232166872
Nothing happens for a couple of minutes. The end of the plane's landing is just past the two-minute mark, a big splash appearing at the left of the screen. Someone was controlling the camera, because within 30 seconds or so it zooms in on the plane, and you can actually see the first passengers emerging and moving out along both wings. The first ferry arrives less than four minutes after the plane stopped moving and begins offloading passengers from one of the wings. Within a couple of minutes there are three at work, with more on the way.
Amazing and wonderful.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9e6_1232166872
Nothing happens for a couple of minutes. The end of the plane's landing is just past the two-minute mark, a big splash appearing at the left of the screen. Someone was controlling the camera, because within 30 seconds or so it zooms in on the plane, and you can actually see the first passengers emerging and moving out along both wings. The first ferry arrives less than four minutes after the plane stopped moving and begins offloading passengers from one of the wings. Within a couple of minutes there are three at work, with more on the way.
Amazing and wonderful.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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N.E. Brigand
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Re: Plane crash in New York
See also < these comments > by David Bratman and the response there.vison wrote:On another forum I visit, there is some discussion of the amazing story about the plane crash in New York.
.....
But on this other site there are about a zillion posts saying that god MUST have intervened to save these people. The accident and its happy ending is being proposed as "proof" that god exists, since it was "obvious" to these people that "something was holding the wings up". It is being called a Miracle.
Re: Plane crash in New York
I would, but my computer won't go there.N.E. Brigand wrote:See also < these comments > by David Bratman and the response there.vison wrote:On another forum I visit, there is some discussion of the amazing story about the plane crash in New York.
.....
But on this other site there are about a zillion posts saying that god MUST have intervened to save these people. The accident and its happy ending is being proposed as "proof" that god exists, since it was "obvious" to these people that "something was holding the wings up". It is being called a Miracle.
Dig deeper.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Primula Baggins
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Just FYI, I can't get that site to load, N.E. Brigand.
Count me as another person of faith who cringes at the idea of God intervening miraculously to save some people and not others. How bitter it must be to hear someone say "God must have wanted those people to live" if you have lost someone you love in a similar accident that ended less happily.
The natural world follows its natural laws, and that must be what God wills. I can't see any way to believe anything else. For me, God's role in suffering and tragedy is neither to cause it nor to prevent it, but to be present and to give hope, strength, and courage to those who ask for it, whatever the outcome.
Count me as another person of faith who cringes at the idea of God intervening miraculously to save some people and not others. How bitter it must be to hear someone say "God must have wanted those people to live" if you have lost someone you love in a similar accident that ended less happily.
The natural world follows its natural laws, and that must be what God wills. I can't see any way to believe anything else. For me, God's role in suffering and tragedy is neither to cause it nor to prevent it, but to be present and to give hope, strength, and courage to those who ask for it, whatever the outcome.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
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I pray whenever the plane takes off and lands.
I don't have a fear of flying, mind you. In fact, I was in a flight to HK that had to land in Vancouver because the plane had mechanical problems. We knew something was already wrong with the plane since it was getting too hot and stuffy, some people had a hard time breathing already. I had the worst headache when they shut off the airconditioning. We can feel the plane flying slower and lower than normal. The flight attendants were going up and down the aisles, which is not normal, as if they were in a hurry or something. The funny thing is, instead of people praising the pilot for landing the plane safely in Vancouver, people were upset because we had to land and wait for almost 4 hours for another plane to take us to our destination. People were demanding why this had to happen, a few wanted to sue the airline. I just shook my head and slept my headache off and thank God that we were not over the Pacific when it happened. This situation occurs but you never hear it in the news. The poor people manning the counters at the airport gets brunt of it.
I don't have a fear of flying, mind you. In fact, I was in a flight to HK that had to land in Vancouver because the plane had mechanical problems. We knew something was already wrong with the plane since it was getting too hot and stuffy, some people had a hard time breathing already. I had the worst headache when they shut off the airconditioning. We can feel the plane flying slower and lower than normal. The flight attendants were going up and down the aisles, which is not normal, as if they were in a hurry or something. The funny thing is, instead of people praising the pilot for landing the plane safely in Vancouver, people were upset because we had to land and wait for almost 4 hours for another plane to take us to our destination. People were demanding why this had to happen, a few wanted to sue the airline. I just shook my head and slept my headache off and thank God that we were not over the Pacific when it happened. This situation occurs but you never hear it in the news. The poor people manning the counters at the airport gets brunt of it.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
That's why it's difficult to be a Christian, since if something bad happens to your family and then you hear your neighbor praising God for his good fortune. You get bitter and blame God. Why is that? It's human nature, of course. It takes the courage of a Saint to actually say God, if this is your will, then thy will be done.Primula Baggins wrote:Just FYI, I can't get that site to load, N.E. Brigand.
Count me as another person of faith who cringes at the idea of God intervening miraculously to save some people and not others. How bitter it must be to hear someone say "God must have wanted those people to live" if you have lost someone you love in a similar accident that ended less happily.
I cringe when I hear people of faith say that they don't believe that there is a so-called "divine intervention". I am not a bible beating Christian but I do believe God works in mysterious ways. Maybe some of us need something out of the ordinary happen to actually feel the presence of God whether it is good or bad.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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Primula Baggins
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But as I see it, faith should not require miracles. And in any case, I don't see evidence of miracles in what happened the other day. No divine intervention was required to produce that result; just people doing their jobs and doing them well, and some good luck in the location of the accident.
I've had all kinds of extraordinary good fortune, including a coincidence that saved my life. I still don't think God did it. Why would God save me and not the woman next to me?
I am not a saint, and I don't think I should have to have the strength of a saint to be able to believe. And I do not think that I should have to believe, or ask others to believe, that God has a "reason" for every joy and sorrow we experience. Things just happen. The laws of the universe that give us free will also open us up to chance good fortune and chance bad fortune. If our lives are microdirected by God, then we do not have free will. And I don't believe that's the universe we're living in.
I've had all kinds of extraordinary good fortune, including a coincidence that saved my life. I still don't think God did it. Why would God save me and not the woman next to me?
I am not a saint, and I don't think I should have to have the strength of a saint to be able to believe. And I do not think that I should have to believe, or ask others to believe, that God has a "reason" for every joy and sorrow we experience. Things just happen. The laws of the universe that give us free will also open us up to chance good fortune and chance bad fortune. If our lives are microdirected by God, then we do not have free will. And I don't believe that's the universe we're living in.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
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God intervenes in the world through us. We may not know it or believe it, but we can still do God's work—or thwart it—because we have the choice.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King