The faith of Abraham

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's why Kierkegaard called it the Leap of Faith.

We'll need to have a discussion about the Book of Job one of these days.

[Sassafras]

We'll need to have a discussion about the Book of Job one of these days.

[Jnyusa]

One of my favorite books of the Bible.

Another story that only appears to be about the nature of God but is really about something else.

Jn

[Impenitent]

"He suffers all the pain of the tragic hero, he brings to naught his joy in the world, he renounces everything … and perhaps at the same instant debars himself from the sublime joy which to him was so precious that he would purchase it at any price. Him the beholder cannot understand nor let his eye rest confidently upon him. . ."

Yes.

Yet.

I can understand Abraham, almost.

But there is that in me that cannot understand Abraham's god. That's where I feel the ground sliding away under my feet.

I know that we aren't supposed to understand god. But that's so unsatisfactory!

It's the leap in the dark, for me.

I agree, that it cannot be understood, not be reason, or logical deduction nor by philosophising; I think that is the nature of all mysteries (as in, sacred mysteries, not the kind with Miss Marple). It can only be intuited in that instantaneous flash, leaving behind an echo of understanding that cannot be articulated.

This is why (putting aside any argument for or against the sacredness of the writing) the Torah (and for Christians, the Bible ) has such a unique place.

The Jewish sages said: "Turn it and turn it, for all the world is in it" - the more you look, the more profound the insight into the essential human condition.

[Cerin]

hobby, thanks for sharing your impressions of the song lyrics. I reacted to them quite a bit differently, but didn't approach them quite so analytically as you did.

I think there's no doubt that my positive feelings of Abraham colored the way the song felt to me. I didn't feel any condemnation from the child in the first part; actually, I felt love and admiration, that he looked up to his father, necessarily so grim at this moment. I think these two phrases are especially important to that impression:

So he started up the mountain,
I was running, he was walking,

he looked once behind his shoulder,
he knew I would not hide.

What these say to me along with the overall picture is that the child trusts and loves the father. He is running up the mountain after his father (not the other way), and he will not hide from him.

The lyrics divide sharply in two for me at that point. I thought it was clearly no longer about Abraham and Isaac. What strikes me most forcefully is that the child has become a man and the direct address, 'you must not do it anymore'. Up until that point the mood had been rather hypnotic, but this brings it abruptly into reality, into the now, like a glass of cold water thrown in the face. And the rest is the commentary on our age.

The reading in the story said that what Abraham offered to God was love and trust - He trusted God to make him drop the knife before he hurt the boy. That's the whole point of the story." /God wants our love, not the ashes of our children." - but I don't understand where that comes from. I've never read the story as Abraham only obeying because he trusted God would not go through with the demand. On the contrary, I thought the point of the story was that Abraham obeyed although he was convinced that the sacrifice would be demanded of him! That it was only this obedience which caused God to make him stop at the last moment.
So, much as I agree with the final sentence of the story, I'm wondering how the author came to read Abraham and Isaac as a story of trust and optimism.

That's how I've understood it, too, so I'll be happy to try and explain my reasoning.

First, I think I'll type the text here so that we can refer to it:

Genesis 22
1Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

2Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

3So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

4Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off.

5And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship and we will come back to you."

6So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand and a knife, and the two of them went together.

7But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." Then he said, "Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

8And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering." So the two of them went together.

9Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.

10And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

11But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am."

12And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

13Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.

14And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day. "In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided."

First it says, 'God tested Abraham.' So one asks, what is this test?

And God says, offer your son as a burnt offering.

Now a glaring inconsistency is suddenly evident. God has already told Abraham that Isaac is his son of promise. That through Isaac God will make Abraham a great nation. So the question of the test, as I see it is: What kind of God is this that I have been talking with? Is this a God who goes back on His word? Is this some kind of capricious God who is promising me the world one day and then telling me to kill the son from whom that promise was to be brought forth?

Another immediate question is, who is the test for? Well, God knows all things, so the test obviously isn't for Him. The test is for Abraham, so he can learn about the quality of his trust in God. Like in a situation where we learn about ourselves, such as having the opportunity to lie in order to cover up something one has done wrong or telling the truth while knowing we'll have to face the consequences. It can tell us something about our character that we might not have been sure of before.

Now if Abraham trusts God and believes that God is good, then he knows Isaac will not be lost to him. He knows that somehow, if God's word is good, he will still have his son on the other side of this ordeal.

You had discounted verse 8, 'God will provide for Himself the lamb' as possibly a lie. Well, that's something that would not occur to me. I tend to take the words as representing the truth of the situation. But consider verse 5, which I think is quite extraordinary:

5And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship and we will come back to you."

Now there are all sorts of things Abraham might have said to the attending men; he would not have had to say what he did. But I take this as a truly wonderful statement of faith and trust: we will come back to you. It just thrills me to the bone. Abraham knew God, and knowing, he trusted. Because to know God is to trust Him, for God is faithful. And so Abraham knew his son of promise was safe. Maybe he had some doubt, but he chose to speak words of faith.

I've never read the story as Abraham only obeying because he trusted God would not go through with the demand.

Well it is more intertwined than that, I think. Abraham obeyed because Abraham trusted God, not because of the known outcome, even though trusting God could only lead to one possible outcome.

On the contrary, I thought the point of the story was that Abraham obeyed although he was convinced that the sacrifice would be demanded of him! That it was only this obedience which caused God to make him stop at the last moment.

Stopping at the last moment was the test, so that Abraham would be certain of his own faith, which God already knew. If Abraham had secretly packed Isaac up and fled the night before (or at the last moment found himself unable to continue, or fallen on his knees and begged God not to take Isaac), well, then he would have learned what his faith in God was, too. But of course, if that was the kind of faith Abraham had, then I doubt that God would be having these very special dealings with him.

[Cerin]

Voronwë, I did not grasp all of that text you posted (being too tired and lazy tonight to go to the dictionary). But one thing lept out at and seized me: faith is a passion.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yes, Kierkegaard was very much a trancendentalist.

[Frelga]

Cerin, my reading is about the same as yours.

To me, the utlimate point of the story is this - if we think that God requires us to spill blood in His honor, we are mistaken.

What of Abraham's obedience, then? He was a wily old man who drove a hard bargain with God to stop the destruction of Sodom. (Gen 18:16, higlighting mine)

Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Nice negotiation technique here.

And yet when told to go and sacrifice his only son, the miraculous son of his old age, he doesn't even attempt to dissuade the Lord!

Yes, the test of Abraham's faith was that he was ready to obey the Lord's command, no matter what the personal cost. But it was more than that - there were religious fanatics aplenty long before Abraham's time. The true test was IMO this - what sort of God did Abraham think this was? I agree with Cerin's reading - that Abraham was sure that his God will not allow him to kill his son.

So was he just faking it? No, I think he would have gone through with the sacrifice had the Angel not stopped him. But that would be the end of the Torah, because even if Abraham had another son his trust in Lord would have been shattered.

Back with more later.

[Jnyusa]

Even with Isaac being spared, I think that part of the test was to keep his trust and his holiness afterwards.

Sarah does not survive the encounter. When she hears where Abraham has taken Isaac her heart fails her. Hard to imagine how he must have felt when he came down the mountain and learned that her faith could not equal his and she died as a result.

Jn

[JewelSong]

Sarah does not survive the encounter

Jny, where is the scriptural reference for this? I could not find it...it says Sarah died, but not that she died as a result of where Abraham took Isaac...

[vison]

Even with Isaac being spared, I think that part of the test was to keep his trust and his holiness afterwards.

Sarah does not survive the encounter. When she hears where Abraham has taken Isaac her heart fails her. Hard to imagine how he must have felt when he came down the mountain and learned that her faith could not equal his and she died as a result.

Jn

That is the bitterest thing I can imagine. That poor old woman.

Her faith not equal!!! Old, fearful, and lacking faith! What a savage condemnation of a heartbroken mother.

I guess I'm a Sarah. I would have died, too. And I would have died hating a god who would demand such a thing.

Sorry if that's offensive. I certainly don't mean to be offensive. Some of you see it as a test of faith, but I see it as cruel. God KNEW that Abraham would obey!!! He was GOD, for the luvva pete.



Well, if I carry on, I will offend someone so I better stop.

Tried to edit and gave up.

[Frelga]

Sorry if that's offensive. I certainly don't mean to be offensive. Some of you see it as a test of faith, but I see it as cruel. God KNEW that Abraham would obey!!! He was GOD, for the luvva pete.

Not offended in the least.

Of course whether God KNEW what Abraham would do brings up that whole question of free will.

And I think a greater point is whether Abraham knew what God would do. But that's a bit obscure and I haven't quite worked it out.

[Jnyusa]

Jewel, that account of Sarah's death is a Midrash, a legend associated with the Torah stories. I should have said, "according to legend."*

But you know, I've so long associated that story with Sarah that when I read your post I thought, "Of course it's in the Torah!" and was really shocked to see that it really isn't!

I did a bit of googling - hoping to find the text of the Midrash. There are collections of them, and some are ... rather strange; especially the ones associated with Genesis. I didn't find the text but found a website with a short interesting read about the Rambam's disagreement with the Midrash (12th century Torah scholar Maimonodes): RAMBAM v. MIDRASH.

I'm sure the point of the 'drash is not that Sarah's faith was unequal to God's test ... but Frelga's earlier post called the story to mind, in that my own view is that 'the test' was not really over when Abraham came down from Mt. Moriah. The story is a bit like the story of Job for me ... a God who would say, "kill your kid," is almost more logical, more comfortable than a God who would say, "kill your kid - no, not really; it's only a test." Certainly in Abraham's day when child sacrifice was common, Abraham might well have felt that with this God he had entered a totally new universe.

What the 'drash is actually trying to tell us ... I'm not sure. There is a tradition that associates the Akedah with the call to Jewish martyrdom, and I suspect that the story about Sarah may be related to this tradition in some way.

Jn

* better yet, according to oral history. Midrash is more than legend, it's also intended as lesson, but ... some of it is, as I said, pretty strange.

[Primula Baggins]

I just want to say that this is completely absorbing.

And that the teacher at my next round of confirmation class is not going to know what hit her.

And that I am not offended by any way in which anyone interprets this text. Rather, I'm fascinated.

[Impenitent]

There is another midrash that the voice which cried out to Abraham to stop was Sarah's voice. I can't remember the whole thing - we discussed it in a women's group meeting about a year ago. If I can find it, I'll post it.

[nerdanel]

First question: if Abraham's faith is such that he knows with a perfect certainty that Issac will not be lost to him - really, truly knows this internally - then how much is he really being tested? My thought has been, God could have "seen" Abraham's heart, known that Abraham would have gone all the way and that his faith was perfect, and stopped the "test" such that the situation was far less cruel to Sarah and Issac (not to mention Abraham).
[Frelga - does free will require that God not know the outcome in advance? Is it "predestination" if we are free to do whatever we want, but God simply knows that it is that we will do? I've always thought the opposite, myself.]

If Abraham DID have doubt, did believe in the slightest that God would require him to sacrifice his only son...then I interpret the story more cynically. I see a man who would murder his child on the basis of, essentially, a voice in his head (I don't believe God presents physically to Abraham until afterwards). Who would take his son - without telling his wife! - and be willing to slit his throat in the name of faith. It seems to me that then, Abraham is merely a predecessor to all of the people who would be willing to do horrific things because they believe the Judeo-Christian (or Judeo-Christian-Islamic) God commanded it of them. vison, I sympathize with what you say, but my horror is directed more in this case towards Abraham than towards God. After all, God does know the aftermath, and knows that no one will be dying as a result (unless you take as literal the midrash which Jn posted.)

The story of Abraham is one that exalts faith in God, as opposed to struggling with God in the process of achieving faith, and as such it has never spoken to me. It is Abraham's grandson, who is goal-oriented, enterprising (perfectly willing to take a birthright that technically doesn't belong to him due to archaic rules), and is willing to wrestle with God such that he makes some sort of impression on God (however literally or figuratively we interpret that story) - to me, his is the most meaningful story of the Patriarchs. I think that it is more than incidental that the Twelve Tribes come from Jacob. Am I the only one who feels that, presented with the command that God gave Abraham, Jacob would have acted differently?

[vison]

Wow, excellent posts.

Yes, I stopped before I explained how I felt about Abraham.

I agree with Jnyusa that a god that would demand a man sacrifice his child, and have him do it, is somehow a more "logical" or "sensible" god than one who would let the man get right to the point of holding a knife to his son's throat and then say, "Hey, just a test."

Abraham does not come off well in my eyes, either. I think this is a very hard story to put a good reading on, to be honest. I think the god in this story is cruel and the man is nearly as cruel. But no time right now to say more.

I always come up against this: somehow in my mind the god in this story is not 'godlike' except in Power.

Yet it is a great story, and one can easily see how it is that centuries go by and people still try to figure it out.

Time to get ready for soccer, so will have to scoot.

[Frelga]

TP
Frelga - does free will require that God not know the outcome in advance? Is it "predestination" if we are free to do whatever we want, but God simply knows that it is that we will do? I've always thought the opposite, myself

I think if the God knows everything we are going to do, then there is no point in him creating people. Aren't we here so we can surprise Him from time to time?

"Hobbits are amazing creatures."

[/sidetrack]

About Sarah's death - the actual text goes

Gen 22
19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.
20 Some time later Abraham was told, "Milcah is also a mother; <...>
Gen 23
1 Sarah lived to be a hundred and twenty-seven years old. 2 She died at Kiriath Arba (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan, and Abraham went to mourn for Sarah and to weep over her.

So it seems that it was "some time later" that Sarah died. But Abraham went to mourn for her. He was in Beersheba but she died in Kiriath Arba. Did she kick him out after hearing what he was about to do?

Jn, if you can find that drash, I'd be really interested in seeing it.

[Jnyusa]

I'll spend some time looking for it tomorrow, Frelga. Seems to me that all the Midrash(im, ot?) ought to be online by now ... I've just got to find the right source.

The distance between Beersheba and Kiryat Arba leaves a lot of space for interpretation regarding the amount of time that might have passed. Abraham's 'homestead' was in Kiryat Arba but he set out for Moriah from Beersheba 'with his young men' and they returned to Beersheba together. The picture I've always gotten from this is that they had gone to Beersheba for summer grazing and were living in 'booths.' Abraham would not have returned to Kiryat Arba until the end of the season except for Sarah's death, and the fact that he must make this journey when he learns of her death suggests to me that the time between these two events was not very long. Also, the fact that Sarah's death is the very next story - except for the insertion about Rivkah's family, which might also have been the purpose of Abraham's visit to Beersheba since Isaac would be about the right age for negotiations to begin - also seems to suggest a close chronological relationship between them.

There is nothing which says it did not happen years later, but then one would have to explain what Abraham was doing in Beersheba all that time, as you pointed out, whereas two plausible explanations for a shorter visit already exist.

Even if the events were close in time, of course, one need not conclude that it was the news of the trip that caused Sarah's heart to fail (I'm pretty sure that is the wording of the Midrash: "her heart failed her") ... we don't know how long the trip to and from Moriah actually took, or how much news passed between Beersheba and Hebron. Seems odd to me that if the round trip from Beersheba to Moriah were short she would learn of the outward journey but not the return. Who sent the message, for example? One of the herders who stayed behind? What would his motive be? - surely by the time the news reached Hebron it would be too late to do anything about it. And if it was one of the young men who accompanied Abraham, they could not have sent the message before returning, in which case Sarah would know that Isaac was still alive.

So ... it's problematic!

There is a tradition that says Moriah was the Temple Mount, but I believe that international scholars have concluded its whereabouts are not known. I find it unlikely that Moriah would be the Temple Mount because the Temple Mount is within spitting distance of Hebron but days and days from Beersheba (on foot) ... That would raise even more questions about the exclusion of Sarah from the 'news' ... or maybe that's where Imp's drash comes from! From the Temple Mount you could almost hear a mother's wailing in Hebron. But it was more likely, I think, some mountain near Beersheba that had been traditionally used for Moloch sacrifices, perhaps even around that time of year. If the Drash is ... accepted to be literally true, Sarah's horror might as easily have been that Abraham had abandoned his faith and reverted to Moloch worship.

Just btw, what the International Biblical Commentary says about the Akeda is that it probably originated to explain why child sacrifices were no longer performed in a particular place. That's the sociologists/anthropologists interpretation but it hues pretty close to the religious interpretation. For whatever reason - social evolution or God's instruction - child sacrifice was no longer an acceptable form of worship.

Jn

[vison]

When I read that Sarah's "heart failed her", I always think it was her "feeling heart", not her physical heart. You can die of a broken heart.

The thing is, did she know where Abraham went and why he went there? Did he tell her? Was it supposed to be a secret between Abraham and god? I have to look this up.

Frelga says: "I think if the God knows everything we are going to do, then there is no point in him creating people"

My thoughts, precisely.

Not ALL my thoughts, but my thoughts as far as that statement goes.