Mormons and Christianity

Post by **Teremia** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:45 pm

Cerin, I just said again in that post that I myself can't really be counted a Christian, even though I'm a member of a Christian denomination (the Quakers).

Each of those denominations has a rather different view of Jesus Christ, I think you'd find. "WWJD" is a question answered very differently by the different groups!

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:51 pm

Well, there are differences and differences!

The Christian denominations you list are all over the ballpark in their specific views of Christ.

But the Mormons aren't in the same ballpark, or even on the same continent. Their theology is actively distressing to many Christians.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:37 pm

Teremia

Ack! I apologize for reading too quickly!

Post by **Teremia** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:37 pm

I'm going to make a pretty shaky apologist for Mormonism

, I'm afraid. It seems to me as a rank outsider, though, that it makes more sense to call them (if one doesn't like what they preach) "bad Christians" or "doctrinally suspect Christians" than to say that they AREN'T Christians, unless we really want to agree that it takes much more than Jesus Christ to make someone or some denomination "Christian." That's all.

There are some pretty fascinating aspects to Mormon theology, though, I've noticed, which might be interesting to talk about -- and of course there's something inherently interesting in a major church arising that way out of nineteenth-century American culture. I mean, on the face of it it's not all that likely, is it? The LDS church really has managed to make that leap from being radical outsiders (or cult) to being something very like the mainstream.

It all rather appeals to my novel-writing science-fiction side.

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:40 pm

unless we really want to agree that it takes much more than Jesus Christ to make someone or some denomination "Christian."

It takes much more than the words 'Jesus Christ' to make someone Christian.

Post by **Jnyusa** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:42 pm

I have to re-read the Book of Mormon. I obviously skipped over a whole lot the first time around.

Jn

Post by **Teremia** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:45 pm

Cerin, what do you think the minimum requirements are for a church to be considered "Christian"?

(Not a question I woke up this morning thinking I would be asking somebody!

)

Post by **halplm** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:53 pm

I have no problem with Mormons thinking they are Christians. I think they're wrong, but everyone is entitled to being wrong, and if they want to talk to me about being a Christian, I'll point out where I think they are wrong (most notably, needing MORE than just Jesus to be saved).

I DO have a problem with non-Christians thinking Mormons are Christians, because it is my desire, however impossible, that any non-Christian would at some point in the future become a Christian. If that non-Christian thinks that becoming a Mormon is the same as becoming a Christian... then that's a significant chance (given how good the Mormon church is at gaining followers), they'll become what they think as of Christian, but completely miss the boat.

Furthermore, if people think Mormons are Christians, and they hear about Mormons thinking they're married eternally, they might misunderstand and think that is a Christian belief (as was the case that started this whole discussion) !!!. THAT is scary, because the Mormons have some SERIOUSLY non-Christian beliefs.

That's the danger that scares me, and that's why I will always vehemenantly reject the notion that Mormons are related to Christianity in ANY way other than they use the NAME Jesus Christ in their literature.

They're Jesus is not a Christian Jesus, and since Christianity IS about Jesus, they cannot be Christians.

ETA: Not to MENTION that it is almost impossible to convince someone to become a Christian if they think they already ARE. In fact, now that I think about it, that's probably a primary reason behind the PR campaign. If they found out they were losing a lot of members to Christianity, they could try and convince their members they already were Christians, and didn't need to leave... (also a scary thought).

Post by **Cerin** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:21 pm

Teremia, I guess I think in terms of what beliefs make someone a Christian. So then, a Christian church would be a group of people who believed those things, and did not believe other contradictory things.

And that would be the basic tenets of the Christian faith, which are actually articulated quite well by the Jews for Jesus

which I'll copy from the other thread (omitting the second paragraph which has to do with Jewish literature).

Now these represent my personal view of Christianity quite closely, but I'll highlight what I think would indicate that a person is not a Christian if they didn't believe it (because of what Christianity means to me), and not meaning any judgment or offense to people who consider themselves Christians but do not believe these things:

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are divinely inspired, verbally and completely inerrant in the original writings and of supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and life.

We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.

We believe that God the Father is the author of eternal salvation, having loved the world and given His Son for its redemption.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures.

We believe in His sinless life and perfect obedience to the Law; in His atoning death, burial, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, high-priestly intercession and His personal return in power and glory.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son; that He was active in the creation of all things and continues to be so in providence; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and that He regenerates, sanctifies, baptizes, indwells, seals, illumines, guides and bestows His gifts upon all believers.

We believe that God created man in His image; that because of the disobedience of our first parents at the Garden of Eden they lost their innocence and both they and their descendants, separated from God, suffer physical and spiritual death and that all human beings, with the exception of Jesus the Messiah, are sinners by nature and practice.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; that all who believe in Him are justified, not by any works of righteousness they have done, but by His perfect righteousness and atoning blood and that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

We believe that Israel exists as a covenant people through whom God continues to accomplish His purposes and that the Church is an elect people in accordance with the New Covenant, comprising both Jews and Gentiles who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His kingdom.

We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved and the everlasting conscious punishment of the lost.

Post by **Teremia** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:50 am

Thanks for posting that, Cerin. Is the blue the "highlighted" part, or the gray?

That's a very thorough list of tenets, and I do suspect that a number of Christian churches wouldn't subscribe to all of them.

Post by **Cerin** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:55 am

Yes, the blue is the highlighted part.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:03 am

Teremia, you're right. My own church, for example, would probably only highlight the parts of that that are also in the Apostles' Creed:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

Post by **yovargas** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:05 am

the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,

Obviously those don't belong in the Christian definition. Right?
Minus that part, the Apostle's Creed sounds like a solid definition of Christianity to me.

Post by **Ethel** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:08 am

yovargas wrote:
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
Obviously those don't belong in the Christian definition. Right?
Minus that part, the Apostle's Creed sounds like a solid definition of Christianity to me.

It's lower case catholic, meaning "universal."

Post by **Teremia** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:31 am

I'm afraid today's Quakers (many of them, anyway) would loosen that creed even further:

The Apostles' Creed, rather truncated:
I believe in God [with the proviso that we don't all have the same image of God]

I believe in Jesus Christ [though not necessarily that he was exactly the son of God; still, definitely a vehicle for the Light]

I believe in the Holy Spirit, [the Light Within]
the forgiveness of sins,
and there's some uncertainty about life everlasting.
Also (not mentioned in the Apostles' Creed):
The peace testimony

AND YET, the Society of Friends stems from the Christian tradition, absolutely, and would I think consider itself and be considered by others "Christian." There are plenty of more traditional beliefs held by many Quakers, but my point is that the whole idea at the outset of the Friends was that you shouldn't force people to follow dogma or creed "from the outside in," but rather seek the guidance of the light within.

Post by **Cerin** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:36 am

Prim, if you'd care to and perfectly fine if you'd rather not, is there any part of the creed I highlighted (which admittedly I picked because it was conveniently there and I found nothing to object to) that you could not subscribe to?

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:59 am

Although I'm not Prim, I'll be honest and say that I do not believe in the last part of the creed.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

These are the parts I have most trouble with.

Post by **Cerin** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:18 pm

Thanks, Alatar! Feel free to expand if you'd like. Why do you have difficulty with those concepts? Is there something you could put in their place, that would better express what you believe?

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:59 pm

Cerin, my highlighting would be different in a couple of places:

We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.

We believe that God created man in His image; that because of the disobedience of our first parents at the Garden of Eden they lost their innocence and both they and their descendants, separated from God, suffer physical and spiritual death and that all human beings, with the exception of Jesus the Messiah, are sinners by nature and practice.

I don't believe in a literal creation as described in Genesis, or in the literal truth and inerrancy of every word of the Bible. I believe that the scientific understanding of the nature and origin of life and the universe is correct. That doesn't rule out God as creator in the sense that God began everything, or in the sense that our existence is according to God's will.

Post by **Alatar** » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:08 pm

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

Well, not really. Not as a seperate entity. Simply another aspect of God.

the holy catholic church,

Well, the catholic church has been responsible for some of the most outrageous acts of barbarism in history, so I can't claim to believe that it is inherently holy. It occasionally rises above itself however.

the communion of saints,

The concept of saints is alien to me. Also many saints recently got demoted, St. Christopher among them. Either he was a saint or he wasn't. I believe in saints as people who were extraordinarily touched by god, like Mother Theresa, but I don't pray to them for intercession.

the forgiveness of sins,

I believe in the forgiveness of sins, but not in the rite of confession. I believe that God forgives sins as soon as they are repented, whether that repence is uttered to a priest or not.

the resurrection of the body,

I don't believe that the body is resurrected, only the soul. I certainly hope I don't end up hobbling round heaven on a Zimmerframe.

and the life everlasting.

Well, this is the biggie, isn't it. I try to believe in life everlasting, but it's hard. That's where faith comes in.