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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:56 pm 
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th, I think people express outrage at the catholic church (because of the few naughty priests) because they sometimes get moved to other dioceses and not punished for breaking the law.

60,000 is not exactly a sizeable minority (especially one to start questioning the official stance of a church) if the total number of members if around 12 million (I'm looking at the number Parma posted). Even in my links it says only around 3% (IIRC) of mormons in Utah practice polygyny.

Anthy wrote:
It is absolutely more understandable to feel uncomfortable with a religion for positions which they once held as doctrine (and that is still kept as doctrine by some), than to judge a religion based on the actions of people who are doing things in that religion's name which have never been part of the mainstream teachings of the faith.


It's entirely unfair to continue to feel uncomfortable towards a group based on what was doctrine but is not anymore. Not only do I think it is unfair, but silly. You can't let the past (in this case, the past prior to your birth) dictate how you feel today. Stances change, times change and observers perceptions have to change.


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:04 am 
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TheEllipticalDisillusion wrote:

Anthy wrote:
It is absolutely more understandable to feel uncomfortable with a religion for positions which they once held as doctrine (and that is still kept as doctrine by some), than to judge a religion based on the actions of people who are doing things in that religion's name which have never been part of the mainstream teachings of the faith.


It's entirely unfair to continue to feel uncomfortable towards a group based on what was doctrine but is not anymore. Not only do I think it is unfair, but silly. You can't let the past (in this case, the past prior to your birth) dictate how you feel today. Stances change, times change and observers perceptions have to change.




Silly? SILLY, am I???!!! I have no doubt that I would appear SILLY to YOU, you insolent pup, since you obviously have no sense whatsoever!


:rage:


Sorry, just trying to work up a little Manwë kinda sweat, here... did I do that right?


Actually, I see your point. Stances do change, that is true, and people should not be judged on whatever their religion was about in the somewhat distant past. In fact, I am much more comfortable trying to understand what makes people tick on an individual basis than the "stance" of their religion, past or present. Which I believe I mentioned in my post.

And, I must point out, I did not say that I was uncomfortable with the Mormon church because of polygynist practices. I do understand that that particular practice is now prohibited by the mainstream church.

However, MY point (which obviously went wide of the mark) is that this practice WAS a part of the original church doctrine, and THAT is simply *why* it is associated with that church.

Obviously, my Mormon friend, married to the same man for many years, worshipping in the same church, thought it was NOT a part of the church that they believed in, and yet was confronted with that exact practice by her husband. She was told that it WAS a part of their religion, and was chastised for not being obedient enough because she objected. He had documents and "older" writings, which he believed WERE a part of the religion (as some people do), and had just been suppressed for reasons he did not agree with. It was written down, TED, and had been part of the foundations of that church. THAT lends it credence, when it is brought up again.

Also, some people, who consider themselves fully Mormon, DO still practice polygyny. The past-- even that ancient past before I was born-- is the present for them.

The offences of the Catholic priests were NOT part of the doctrine of the church. So, therefore, one can fault the priests themselves, which one should, or the heirarchy which shielded them, which is the part that really frosts my gourds, but one cannot cite the "it's okay to brutalize children" doctrine of the Catholic church in one's argument. It doesn't exist, and never did.

Elsewhere, it has been brought up that slavery is associated with the South. Why is that, you might ask? Well, because there was, at one time before my birth, slavery in the South.

I have actually never owned a slave, and yet simply being a Southerner is enough for people to associate me in their minds with slavery. I get a fair number of questions about slavery, as if it is something that I have personally witnessed, and occasionally bear the painful barbs of people assuming I am pro-slavery or anti-black, because of the actions of a society I never lived in.

It is uncomfortable for me, and doesn't always feel very fair; I am against slavery as anyone else. However, the association is understandable, given the facts of the past.

The past DOES tend to drift into the future, and color the present. It isn't the only color, nor should a tapestry be judged on the color of one thread. But to deny that the color is there is... well, silly, actually.

:D

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:25 pm 
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Cerin wrote:
Hi, Parmamaite. I don't believe we've ever had the pleasure of conversing before. :)
Hi Cerin :) I think you're right, there's a first for everything.

Cerin wrote:
Now I can't argue the specifics with you, because I frankly don't remember the specifics of either of those faiths, except that they believed different things about Jesus than I do, things so fundamentally different as to make the use of the term 'Christian' meaningless.

I consider anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus a Christian, I agree with you that that does include a lot of very different churches, and it's a label that doesn't say much about what a person believes in, but I don't think it's entirely meaningless. If we want to be more precise we can use terms as "catholic", "calvinist", "methodist" etc. I don't think that it's a viable solution to weed out sects that doesn't live up to certain arbitrary standards.

Cerin wrote:
This is not to say that I am the true Christian and they are not. It simply means that both of us using the same term to describe our beliefs isn't helpful, because those beliefs are profoundly and essentially different.
Agreed! :) so they are "mormons" and you are something else, we don't need to take the term "Christians" from them in order to express the difference between you and them.

Cerin wrote:
I also do think it's unsettling the way the Mormons practically run the state of Utah. That doesn't seem in keeping, to me, with our separation of church and state-style Democracy.
Again we agree, I'm all for segregation too.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:04 pm 
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I think we need a special "I agree with Anthy" smiley! :D

Quote:
It's entirely unfair to continue to feel uncomfortable towards a group based on what was doctrine but is not anymore. Not only do I think it is unfair, but silly. You can't let the past (in this case, the past prior to your birth) dictate how you feel today. Stances change, times change and observers perceptions have to change.

TED, you can't tell people how they are supposed to feel.
As a German, I know that people sometimes do feel uncomfortable towards me. I don't think I've personally deserved it, so I agree it's unfair, and that is annoying to me - but like Anthy said, it's very, very understandable.

Though, to make my own position clear, I'm not so much uncomfortable with the general fact of polygyny (if all parties involved were ok with it, I guess why not?), I'm uncomfortable with the whole mindset displayed by at least a part of the members of the sect - reaching from asking "obedience" to avoid ostracism to administering secular power and advocating theocracy.


Quote:
Sorry, just trying to work up a little Manwë kinda sweat, here... did I do that right?
:rage:

Hmmh, Anthy, I'm not sure - I think it's more the cold-blooded anger you need for that - don't show your opponent you're hit. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:15 pm 
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TED was just offering his opinion. He wasn't trying to dictate how people should live their lives.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:17 pm 
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He told Anthy that the way she was feeling was unfair and silly.

Feeling the way she and I have described in later posts is not silly, it's natural.

Telling someone that something they do is unfair is as good as telling them that it's wrong. IOW, he was telling her how to feel.

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but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:11 am 
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TED wrote:
It's entirely unfair to continue to feel uncomfortable towards a group based on what was doctrine but is not anymore. Not only do I think it is unfair, but silly. You can't let the past (in this case, the past prior to your birth) dictate how you feel today. Stances change, times change and observers perceptions have to change.


I think both TED and Anthriel are right. It is both unfair, silly and understandable.

And if we're allowed to express our opinions on this forum, surely we're allowed to express our opinion of the opinions of other posters.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:13 am 
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Well, in fairness, I don't think that TED was understanding exactly what I was trying to say... perhaps I could have said it better.

I didn't mean that I was judging a current religion based on their past doctrine; that notion probably is silly. What I was trying to say was that associating that doctrine with that religion was understandable, given the history.

It'll be interesting to see if TED thinks THAT thought was silly. If he does, well then, we'll just have to take it outside, won't we.

:x




And Hobby? I have NEVER felt uncomfortable around a German. I love Germans. Germans rock!

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"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:22 am 
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Parmamaite wrote:
And if we're allowed to express our opinions on this forum, surely we're allowed to express our opinion of the opinions of other posters.


Yes, of course. As long as it is done courteously and respectfully (which does not mean that people can't disagree with other people's opinions, even passionately so).

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:43 am 
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Parmamaite wrote:
And if we're allowed to express our opinions on this forum, surely we're allowed to express our opinion of the opinions of other posters.


But can I express my opinion of your opinion of the opinions of someone else?

Good Lord, where will it end? :D

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:01 am 
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<fires tachyon stream into wormhole before it can suck anyone else in>

My work here is done.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:52 am 
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That's YOUR opinion. Silly girl.


:P

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"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:51 am 
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Anthy, I just couldn't get that true Manwë rawr from your post. You're way too nice for me to think that. :D I do agree that it is understandable, but I think it is silly just the same. Silly things can be understandable. It's all good.

We could take it outside for fun, though, if you still want. Maybe we can play kickball. :x :rofl:


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:40 pm 
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DAMN. That wasn't it?

:x

...RAWWRRRR....


<practices mean face in mirror>


....RAWWRRRR....



I'm gonna get this, boy howdy...


....RAWWRRRR...

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"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:49 pm 
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Anthriel wrote:

Silly? SILLY, am I???!!! I have no doubt that I would appear SILLY to YOU, you insolent pup, since you obviously have no sense whatsoever!


:rage:


Sorry, just trying to work up a little Manwë kinda sweat, here... did I do that right?



Hmmmmm...I'd say...less smilies, more arrogance.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:24 pm 
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HEY!!!

I CALLED him an insolent pup. (Which, of course, is so very true...)


What does it take to impress you people, anyway?

:rage:

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"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:40 pm 
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See, thing is, true Manweistas don't get angry because they're always right about everything therefore everybody else is beneath them. You must be arrogant and condescending, not enraged. The Image is a much more appropriate Manweista emoticon then :rage:.

Everybody knows that. Image

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:07 pm 
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Ahhhh.... I see.



Insolent pup. :roll:



Better?

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"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:50 pm 
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Don't write in tiny font, though. Manweistas assume it to be the unconscious saying "but really, I'm wrong here." And then we just gloat a little more. :roll: <--- gloating

Now a really good response not only cleverly insults me (which you did), but also semi attacks my argument.

"Taking the stance that it is silly is asinine in the worst sort of way, you insolent pup :roll:."

:D


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:24 am 
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Now THAT's a Manweista. :D

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