I tend to the point of view expressed by Prim's dad; taking their fundamental principles and comparing them to the fundamental principles of christianity, they don't really add up.
I agree Hal; it is very similar to a believing Christian who claims to nevertheless be practising Judaism.
(...which is my gripe with 'messianic Jews' aka Jews for Jesus...but that's an aside and not for discussion here.)
Mormons and Christianity
This thread is surprising me.
During the Vietnam War the Mormons were conscientious objectors and did two years of religious service in lieu of the draft. So we would see lots of two-men teams walking around neighborhoods and introducing people to their religion. I usually invite people like that in for refreshment if I'm home when they come knocking ... Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists ... I let them spin their yarn, you know. I mean, most people are nice and that always looked to me like a pretty thankless job.
So anyway, I've heard the Mormon story a few times but I don't recall anything about other planets. I've read about their 'shunning' practices and their multiple marriages because there have been lawsuits over those things ... and I believe there is a perception that a lot of violence accompanied their settlement of Utah but I don't know how much of that tale is prejudicial ....
Is extraterrestrial colonization in the Book or Mormon? I really thought it was just about Jesus appearing to the Indians in South America. Where do these ideas come from? It sounds a bit like Scientology.
Jn
During the Vietnam War the Mormons were conscientious objectors and did two years of religious service in lieu of the draft. So we would see lots of two-men teams walking around neighborhoods and introducing people to their religion. I usually invite people like that in for refreshment if I'm home when they come knocking ... Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists ... I let them spin their yarn, you know. I mean, most people are nice and that always looked to me like a pretty thankless job.
So anyway, I've heard the Mormon story a few times but I don't recall anything about other planets. I've read about their 'shunning' practices and their multiple marriages because there have been lawsuits over those things ... and I believe there is a perception that a lot of violence accompanied their settlement of Utah but I don't know how much of that tale is prejudicial ....
Is extraterrestrial colonization in the Book or Mormon? I really thought it was just about Jesus appearing to the Indians in South America. Where do these ideas come from? It sounds a bit like Scientology.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
I can tell you all that Mormons make good bread. Or at least one Mormon does. ( A friend of my mother's is Mormon and she brought her a loaf of bread and I got some of it and it was tasteh! )
To be honest I have heard a lot of, erm, strange thing about Mormon practices and beliefs, but I don't think it would be fair or courteous to repeat them here.
As far as the central question of this thread, I think that once you add a lot of sacred texts, it becomes a different religion. Catholics and Methodists and Lutherans all use the same Bible ( well, mostly ), it's just interpreted differently. Mormon have their own whole book added to the Bible. Objectively I think that makes it a separate religion.
To be honest I have heard a lot of, erm, strange thing about Mormon practices and beliefs, but I don't think it would be fair or courteous to repeat them here.
As far as the central question of this thread, I think that once you add a lot of sacred texts, it becomes a different religion. Catholics and Methodists and Lutherans all use the same Bible ( well, mostly ), it's just interpreted differently. Mormon have their own whole book added to the Bible. Objectively I think that makes it a separate religion.
I've read The Book of Mormon. It is quite interesting. I read it about 25 years ago when a friend of mine converted and joined the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. She gave me a copy.
As scriptures go, it is pretty modern. It hasn't got that patina of age and solemnity that some other scriptures have. I don't recall it all, of course. Some of it made my eyebrows go up, I can tell you that.
But then, so does the Book of Revelations.
Whether it is "Christian" or not to those outside it, those in it regard themselves as Christians. Those I know are good people. They have many good ideas about family life, etc., aside from the polygyny issue.
As scriptures go, it is pretty modern. It hasn't got that patina of age and solemnity that some other scriptures have. I don't recall it all, of course. Some of it made my eyebrows go up, I can tell you that.
But then, so does the Book of Revelations.
Whether it is "Christian" or not to those outside it, those in it regard themselves as Christians. Those I know are good people. They have many good ideas about family life, etc., aside from the polygyny issue.
Dig deeper.
yes, it is in the book of mormon. They also believe that Jesus is the sun of some kind of "man-God" that is a God that they aspire to be by achieving the highest level of "heaven." This "man-god" is only the god of this planet, not the only God.
One thing that is particularly disturbing about Mormonism is that many parts of the religion are not taught to everyone, only the "inner circle" and when you start talking about "populating planets" and "eternally pregnant" most Mormons won't know what you're talking about, even though it's right there int he book of mormon. (Granted, there are many Christians like this as well, so It's not unique to them)
They have radically tried to shift their image to being more "Christian" as they want to attract more people, and bein a "cult" is not conducive to gaining more people. However, Brigham Young, who was Joseph Smith's successor back in the 1800s, blatantly stated that you could not get into heaven without believing in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
This very clearly puts them in the position of a "false prophet" which the Bible warns us about.
To claim to be Christians is deceptive and FAR more dangerous in my humble opinions, because they twist what I consider the truth... making it seem good, when it is, in fact, quite misleading.
One thing that is particularly disturbing about Mormonism is that many parts of the religion are not taught to everyone, only the "inner circle" and when you start talking about "populating planets" and "eternally pregnant" most Mormons won't know what you're talking about, even though it's right there int he book of mormon. (Granted, there are many Christians like this as well, so It's not unique to them)
They have radically tried to shift their image to being more "Christian" as they want to attract more people, and bein a "cult" is not conducive to gaining more people. However, Brigham Young, who was Joseph Smith's successor back in the 1800s, blatantly stated that you could not get into heaven without believing in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
This very clearly puts them in the position of a "false prophet" which the Bible warns us about.
To claim to be Christians is deceptive and FAR more dangerous in my humble opinions, because they twist what I consider the truth... making it seem good, when it is, in fact, quite misleading.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Since I was going to start a new thread anyway, I split off the posts about Jews for Jesus and put them here
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Primula Baggins
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My head is spinning! 
I've said what I had to say about Mormonism, other than the fact that I have had dear friends who were Mormon and liked them just fine. We didn't discuss religion, is all. My view of their theology has nothing to do with my view of them as people.
I've said what I had to say about Mormonism, other than the fact that I have had dear friends who were Mormon and liked them just fine. We didn't discuss religion, is all. My view of their theology has nothing to do with my view of them as people.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I don't know if it's fair to say there was "a lot" of violence regarding their settlement of Utah. There certainly was some. The most famous episode is known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre - it's a horrifying story. I have a friend who claims that her grandfather was killed by Mormons dressed as Indians. (She's quite a reputable sort of person, and such killings were not unknown.)Jnyusa wrote:So anyway, I've heard the Mormon story a few times but I don't recall anything about other planets. I've read about their 'shunning' practices and their multiple marriages because there have been lawsuits over those things ... and I believe there is a perception that a lot of violence accompanied their settlement of Utah but I don't know how much of that tale is prejudicial ....
But it's important to remember that at the time of the Mountain Meadows massacre, the Mormons felt very much under seige. They had endured real persecution in Missouri and Illinois before heading west.
I find the Mormon religion and culture - I believe it's both - fascinating. It has been extraordinarily successful. There's something powerful at work there. They definitely do consider themselves Christian, but I doubt many non-Mormon Christians agree.
Well all I know is my best friend is Mormon and they do believe in being married forever....yikes.
However, the test education scores in Utah are threw the roof compared to the rest of the states. So maybe Ethel is right about it has been extraordinarily successful. There's something powerful at work there.
However, the test education scores in Utah are threw the roof compared to the rest of the states. So maybe Ethel is right about it has been extraordinarily successful. There's something powerful at work there.
Well, you know, as they say, "some of my best friends are Mormons." I've read the Book of Mormon, plus a bunch of the other writings, I've been as a guest to church services, etc. etc. etc. and I promise you that within any typology of religions that makes sense (EXCEPT, as we've seen in this thread, from the POV of certain other Christian denominations), the Mormons are Christians, in that they believe in redemption through Jesus Christ.
Let us consider various Christian denominations:
Anglicans
Quakers
Baptists
Anabaptists
Seventh-Day Adventists
Lutherans
Roman Catholics
Mormons
On this list -- even apart from the Mormons -- there are some denominations with VASTLY different belief structures, habits, religious texts, practices, hymns, etc. Many a Baptist is going to consider many a Catholic unsaved, perhaps not even a "real" Christian. Certainly also true of many a Seventh-Day Adventist looking at many a Quaker (and Lord knows my identity as a Quaker only muddies these waters). Etc.
Really we can't judge which denomination should be sorted out as "Christian" by the fine print of what they read and/or believe about the afterlife, because as we saw already in our lovely "hell" thread, we don't have a Christian consensus on ANYTHING, other than the importance of Jesus Christ, and even that, as a Quaker who can't quite cut it as a "Christian," is problematic. (Nevertheless, we have to sort the Quakers into the Christian branch, or George Fox would roll over in his grave.)
Since this is Lasto beth lammen, I believe I can conclude by saying:
Just like everybody else on that EXTREMELY VARIED list, those nice Mormons are part of a "Christian" religion, not Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, or, for that matter, Wiccan. And I'm not sure why the LDS Church should be considered a "cult" any more than tons of other established churches whose beliefs and practices also make my eyebrows rise (and sometimes my hair stand on end). It's one of the largest churches in the country these days, notice that?
Let us consider various Christian denominations:
Anglicans
Quakers
Baptists
Anabaptists
Seventh-Day Adventists
Lutherans
Roman Catholics
Mormons
On this list -- even apart from the Mormons -- there are some denominations with VASTLY different belief structures, habits, religious texts, practices, hymns, etc. Many a Baptist is going to consider many a Catholic unsaved, perhaps not even a "real" Christian. Certainly also true of many a Seventh-Day Adventist looking at many a Quaker (and Lord knows my identity as a Quaker only muddies these waters). Etc.
Really we can't judge which denomination should be sorted out as "Christian" by the fine print of what they read and/or believe about the afterlife, because as we saw already in our lovely "hell" thread, we don't have a Christian consensus on ANYTHING, other than the importance of Jesus Christ, and even that, as a Quaker who can't quite cut it as a "Christian," is problematic. (Nevertheless, we have to sort the Quakers into the Christian branch, or George Fox would roll over in his grave.)
Since this is Lasto beth lammen, I believe I can conclude by saying:
Just like everybody else on that EXTREMELY VARIED list, those nice Mormons are part of a "Christian" religion, not Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, or, for that matter, Wiccan. And I'm not sure why the LDS Church should be considered a "cult" any more than tons of other established churches whose beliefs and practices also make my eyebrows rise (and sometimes my hair stand on end). It's one of the largest churches in the country these days, notice that?
They do not believe in redemption through Jesus Christ.
They believe in redemption through Jesus Christ AND Joseph Smith.
That makes them non-Christians. They are followers of Joseph Smith. If anything, they could be called Smithians.
They use Christianity to add legitimacy to their religion when it has NO historical backing. It is entirely based on the ideas of ONE man and the vision he says he had.
A mormon is NOT a Christian. They have a massive PR campaign in place to get people to think that. It's just not true.
Joseph Smith stated, in one of his earliest statements that ALL other Christian religions were wrong. It is only very recently that the Mormon Church has decided to try and reclaim something with regards to Christianity. This is being done for political, economic, and PR reasons, nothing more.
They believe in redemption through Jesus Christ AND Joseph Smith.
That makes them non-Christians. They are followers of Joseph Smith. If anything, they could be called Smithians.
They use Christianity to add legitimacy to their religion when it has NO historical backing. It is entirely based on the ideas of ONE man and the vision he says he had.
A mormon is NOT a Christian. They have a massive PR campaign in place to get people to think that. It's just not true.
Joseph Smith stated, in one of his earliest statements that ALL other Christian religions were wrong. It is only very recently that the Mormon Church has decided to try and reclaim something with regards to Christianity. This is being done for political, economic, and PR reasons, nothing more.
I HAVE noticed that.It's one of the largest churches in the country these days, notice that?
What you are, in regards to God, is what you are in your heart. If you believe in Christ as your savior, it sure seems to me like you are a Christian. If you never even tell anyone that that is what you feel, you are STILL a Christian. There are plenty of folks out there who would say I'm not a Christian. They can say and feel whatever they want. I know what my heart says.
My sis-in-law is Mormon, and I have a lot of difficulty with some of the tenets of that religion. ESPECIALLY how they view the relative value of women. My brother and his wife have an almost two year old daughter (she was born on my birthday!
) and I look into those sweet blue eyes and despair of what she will be taught about her worth in God's eyes, compared to the worth of men.But she doesn't have to believe it.
And that is the crux of the thing, to me. People who choose to believe all the various rules of their religion are fine with me, of course, but a bit perplexing. Never to question? Never to challenge? Never to think, huh, that just doesn't jive with a God who gave it all up for me, little old ME, lowly female that I am?
Plus, she will have her Aunty Anth whispering rebellious things in her cute little ears.
So, then, I guess anyone who believes in Christ as their saviour is a Christian. It doesn't mean that Mormonism is a Christian faith... I'm not sure what to make of that faith, actually... just that I believe it's pretty much a one-on-one thing, anyway.
Perplexing church rules don't matter much, when it comes right down to it.
Edit: cross-posted with hal.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
That means nothing, Teremia, if what they mean by the words 'Jesus Christ' and 'redemption' mean something different than mainstream Christianity, which they do.Teremia wrote:the Mormons are Christians, in that they believe in redemption through Jesus Christ.
It is offensive to me to see 'Mormons' on the list of other Christian denominations (not that I'm saying you can't group them as you see fit). They are not Christian in that their beliefs about whoever it is they call Jesus are fundemantally different than the beliefs that Christians have about the person they call Jesus.
It isn't about fine print, Teremia. It is about fundamental differences that make Mormon beliefs blasphemous to Christians.
Or as Jnyusa said, someone coming in here and calling themselves Jnyusa doesn't make them Jnyusa.
I had the impression that you weren't a Christian yourself, Teremia. Am I correct about that?
As you say, since this is Lasto Beth Lammen, I can conclude by saying that Mormons are not Christians, whatever they may claim, though they may by and large be lovely people and run a prosperous state.
I would agree that they are a cult of Christianity, rather than of Hinduism or Buddhism, since their founder chose to attach his revelations to Christianity, rather than to some other religion.
