The Garden of Eden

[Frelga]

To take a break from the weightier spiritual matters, I invite those so inclined to ponder a lighter question. It occurred to me about 3AM today, which may explain a few things.

Assuming the description of the Gander of Eden in Genesis is accurate, do you suppose the animals mated there?

I've heard people say that but for Eve and Adam's folly, we would still live in Paradise. That's not right, of course, for there would be no "we". The first couple would just run around barebutt in their innocence and never produce any children. They would know neither lust nor death. But what about the animals? Were they immortal, too? Or did they mate and reproduce? And if they did, then why not Adam and Eve?

P.S.: I added a poll just because I could. I did NOT include the option for those who don't believe in the story of Genesis, just because I am curious how things could have worked within the parameters of the story.

[Jnyusa]

Frelga: They would know neither lust nor death.



Got to hear this explained before I can answer the poll.

Within the parameters of the story, according to my understanding, the Garden was not without death. But so what? If A&E were walking with God and knew the Eternal, there was no reason to fear physical death. It would just be a transition from one known state to another.

So ... I think it depends on what one thinks about death. If there was death in the garden, then there could be procreation, of animals and of us, and and there probably was. Genesis does not say that A&E had no genitalia, no hormones, etc.

If there were no death, then there could not be procreation either, at least not within physical parameters as we currently understand them.

Jn

[halplm]

why wouldn't Adam and Eve reproduce? It's the first thing God said to them... "be fruitful and multiply" ...

[truehobbit]

I was wondering whether this was the counter-thread to yov's "Hell" and asking if we believe in Paradise!

It's a good question, though - if they were immortal they couldn't have afforded to procreate - maybe they mated, but didn't produce offspring? Animals as well as Adam and Eve!
Or they did die? Are we sure that Adam and Eve were immortal?
I don't know what the official reading on this is, but maybe, if they had had more time, Adam and Eve would have had offspring and have died at some point?

With my limited knowledge of the texts, I've always taken the tree to bring "awareness" - it's called the "Tree of Realisation" in literal translation from German - Adam and Eve became ashamed of being naked - they'd been naked before, they suddenly felt bad about being natural. And natural implies having sex.

And from what you read in Milton's Paradise Lost, they were happy in their having sex, too! The passages about Adam and Eve there are very erotic in the best sense of the word, IMO! Nothing dirty about it, but a natural attraction that they gave way to.


Hal and Jny - good points!

Edited to add:

From Paradise Lost:

So hand in hand they passd, the lovliest pair
That ever since in loves imbraces met,

So spake our general Mother, and with eyes
Of conjugal attraction unreprov'd,
And meek surrender, half imbracing leand
On our first Father, half her swelling Breast
Naked met his under the flowing Gold
Of her loose tresses hid: he in delight
Both of her Beauty and submissive Charms
Smil'd with superior Love, as JUPITER
On JUNO smiles, when he impregns the Clouds
That shed MAY Flowers;

thus these two
Imparadis't in one anothers arms
The happier EDEN, shall enjoy their fill
Of bliss on bliss,

[Frelga]

OK, I looked it up. Hal's right, the God did tell Humans 1.0 to "be fruitful and multiply" - the first positive commandment in the Torah.

People and animals were all vegans, apparently.

29. And God said, "Behold, I have given you every seed bearing herb, which is upon the surface of the entire earth, and every tree that has seed bearing fruit; it will be yours for food. 30. And to all the beasts of the earth and to all the fowl of the heavens, and to everything that moves upon the earth, in which there is a living spirit, every green herb to eat," and it was so.

So at that point, no animal hunted another and we are not told if they just died quietly of an old age.

Now, that was before Havva/Eve was separated from Adam, unless you hold that Chapter 2 is the more detailed explanation of what occurred before, a premise I am not prepared to debate.

In any case, once Havva was created, the God tells them

24. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

Since Adam and Eve had no parents, it is possible that the God is speaking of the more distant future of the humanity, which of course is known to God, and not of immediate procreation.

25. Now they were both naked, the man and his wife, but they were not ashamed

This could mean that no shame accompanied the mating. But we are only told that Adam "knew" his wife after they left Eden. God also tells Eve "And to your husband will be your desire" after the two are caught with their snack, which to me again implies that until that point she did NOT feel that desire.

However, they were not immortal, apparently, as it is God's concern "lest he stretch forth his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat and live forever." OTOH, Rashi explains this thusly:

And if he were to live forever, he would be likely to mislead people to follow him and to say that he too is a deity (Gen. Rabbah 9:5).

Which I take to mean that the immortality would not be a concern without the knowledge of good and evil.

I was wondering whether this was the counter-thread to yov's "Hell" and asking if we believe in Paradise!

No, I'm staying the well out of that subject now.

[truehobbit]

OTOH, Rashi explains this thusly:

Who's Rashi?

No, I'm staying the well out of that subject now.

LOL - well, when I first saw the thread I realised I couldn't answer the question, so I stayed out of it - and now, from skimming there, it looks like I'm missing a great discussion. I'm still struggling whether I should read the discussion, and at least contribute to clear up the misconceptions many people seem to have of Christianity, even if I can't say anything about myself with reference to the question.

[Pearly Di]

Ha. Voted for the third option.

But, yes, I believe that the animals mated.

I mean, life was gonna CONTINUE ...

So I also believe that Adam and Eve had fantastic, mind-blowing, passionate sex.

[Impenitent]

Rashi

and also....Rashi

[JewelSong]

So I also believe that Adam and Eve had fantastic, mind-blowing, passionate sex.

I love you, Pearl!

[truehobbit]

Thanks for the links, Imp!

Wow, that's a pretty impressive! Definitely a name one should know as a historian.

I'm amazed though he seems still to be widely known today? (I mean, Frelga quotes him as if it was the most normal thing in the world. I don't think I've ever heard an ordinary Christian (as opposed to a cleric or Bible scholar I mean) make a point by saying "Augustine said..." or so. )

Pearl, quite what I meant!

[Frelga]

LOL, Frelga is just showing off. But Rashi is THE most well known commentator of the Torah, and any Jew who has shown any interest in studying Torah - which should in theory be any Jew who is at all religious - has at least heard his name.

Pearl, I love your idea of the happy eternity. I am curious if you think the text supports it, or if it's what your heart tells you.

And I'm glad to see that the board is unanimous on the subject of Frelga needing more sleep.

[Jnyusa]

under the flowing Gold
Of her loose tresses hid

If mitochondrial DNA is anything to go by, her hair was most certainly black!



Jn

[Pearly Di]

Pearl, I love your idea of the happy eternity. I am curious if you think the text supports it, or if it's what your heart tells you.

I think the text supports - by implication - the possibility that this is a credible scenario!

Well, OK, of course there's not a specific verse anywhere in Genesis 1 and 2 to tell us that Adam and Eve enjoyed fantastic, mind-blowing, passionate sex.

But ... God tells them to go right ahead and be fruitful and multiply. He's a man. She's a woman. He is Adam, the father of all. She's Eve, the mother of all. So yes, sex is happening before things go pear-shaped in Chapter 3!

Which raises all sorts of fascinating questions about the nature of sexuality in Eden. Did Eve menstruate? If so, pre-Eden, surely this would have been a painless procedure ...

Who knows? Perhaps God originally created human beings with something akin to Elvish biology.

Yes, Jnyusa, I know. According to Milton, Eve was a blonde.

[yovargas]

A bit of a sidenote, but iirc, isn't it generally believed that we will stop having/wanting sex in heaven?

[Frelga]

A bit of a sidenote, but iirc, isn't it generally believed that we will stop having/wanting sex in heaven?

I won't.

OK, that was flippant. I suppose it depends on whether you believe that we retain our physical body or some celestial equivalent after Death. There is a belief that in the afterworld we will come to appreciate spiritual joys much more than the physical pleasures of this world. OTOH, there is also a belief in physical resurrection, in which case we will probably want to put our newly refurbished bodies to good use.

But ... God tells them to go right ahead and be fruitful and multiply. He's a man. She's a woman. He is Adam, the father of all. She's Eve, the mother of all. So yes, sex is happening before things go pear-shaped in Chapter 3!

That's a really fascinating part to me – God gives them the first positive commandment after "male and female He created them" bit. Before Eve was created. And then IIRC Adam named his wife Havva/Eve after things went pear-shaped.

Which raises all sorts of fascinating questions about the nature of sexuality in Eden. Did Eve menstruate? If so, pre-Eden, surely this would have been a painless procedure ...

Well, AFAIK she didn't bear Cain until she was out of Eden so perhaps she didn't ovulate until then?

Who knows? Perhaps God originally created human beings with something akin to Elvish biology

Oh, I like THAT!

[Primula Baggins]

You know, something that is consistently mentioned in descriptions of Heaven in the Christian Bible is the fabulous, abundant food and wine. It's not some ascetic, spiritual place where bodiless spirits waft about; it's a place where you get ALL YOU WANT to eat and the food is GREAT.

[halplm]

Sexuality is without a doubt a very important of being a human being. I don't think that will go away in heaven. Then again, maybe what we have as sex on earth, is only a pale comparison of what we will have available to us in heaven.

When people marry, they are supposed to become "one flesh"... in other words, a blending of each other's very being and existance.... what if that's even more true in a spiritual sense in heaven... sounds pretty amazing to me...

[yovargas]

When people marry, they are supposed to become "one flesh"...

I also had the impression that there'd be no marriage in heaven. Yes? No? Perhaps that was just a belief particular to my childhood religion (not sure) but I could swear there was something along those lines in Revelations...

[halplm]

Nope, no marriage in heaven. That's why the marriage vows are "'till death." No gender either, I would imagine...

[vison]

Nope, no marriage in heaven. That's why the marriage vows are "'till death." No gender either, I would imagine...

********JOKE AHEAD, NOT MEANT TO OFFEND*********

Well, now I really do want to go to Hell instead! No gender? That's no fun.

*********END OF JOKE**********************


I think the bible says there will be no giving or taking in marriage, but I can't recall where it says that.

However, at least one sect of Christianity believes that you will STILL be married to your spouse in Heaven, and they go about "sealing" their earthly marriages to ensure that. No doubt I have it partly wrong, but a Mormon friend explained it all to me years ago. Someone here can probably straighten me out.