Christians: How Involved Are You in Church?

[Lalaith]

Oh no, Alatar has stumbled into the dreaded discussion of...

SCREEN vs. BOOK!



Simpler? In some ways. Better? That's up for debate. Going to happen? No, not unless our church decides to go completely "backwards." It's what the trend is right now in the more contemporary, evangelical churches--heavy on multimedia.

But thanks for the suggestion.


Prim, yes, the pastor search committee duties will end when we find a new pastor; it's just that we're starting to get into the thick of it with that, and it's a lot of work--the kind of work I don't enjoy (calling people!). But I just have to stick it out on this one. The task is pretty much just our own. We had some guidance at the beginning from our association's guy, but we accept resumes (imagine the accents, too rushed to go find them) and evaluate them all. Beyond that, it's the process you'd imagine--contacting references, interviewing the guy, his family, going to hear him preach, etc.

Jewel, those are wise words. We are actually trying for change; we're attempting to put together an entirely new service, without upsetting the apple cart for the current service. I don't know if that will happen or not. Yes, our church desperately needs shaking up; I just don't know if that's what will end up happening, and then things will improve. Or if they'll refuse change and growth and die.

My major conversation with God when our friends left boiled down to this: Don't leave me here in this church working frantically if it's doomed to die anyway. Don't leave me in a sinking ship. I'll stay and work if there's hope, but I don't want to work so hard for a hopeless thing.

I'm not sure if God is going to honor my request or not.

Wampus, you do give me hope.

yovi, I will think about how to answer you. Right now, I have to leave to go teach biology to our homeschool co-op kids. It probably does deserve a new thread, or perhaps not.

(I want to ask you about that "mostly-atheist" thing anyway. )

to everyone else who responded with words of advice or sympathy. I do appreciate it.


Lali

[Primula Baggins]

In our church we have to put the hymns, with the music, in the bulletin. There would be a mutiny if people couldn't have the music in front of them—lots of them like to sing harmony, especially on old favorites. But we pull hymns from five different hymnals, so we spare everyone the juggling by putting everything in one place.

Different ways. I think we will never be a multimedia congregation, except for bits of video during some sermons. We just replaced our ancient TV/VCRs with a couple of flatscreens and a DVD player, and a major requirement was that we had to be able to put it all completely away in cabinets in the back of the church, except on the Sundays it's going to be used.

[Alatar]

Is glad Ireland is backward enough not to have multimedia presentations at mass. Has enough of that at work...

[Erunáme]

There would be a mutiny if people couldn't have the music in front of them—lots of them like to sing harmony, especially on old favorites.

That's how I feel. I didn't grow up going to church and the short time when I did go to church as a child, it was before the contemporary songs. So as as teen when I went to one of my friend's church that held contemporary services, I was completely lost when it came to the songs. I hadn't heard them nor did I have any music to at least attempt to sightread. Personally, I don't like the use of multimedia in a church service.

[JewelSong]

One of the (many) reasons I love Quaker Meeting for Worship is the lack of any kind of trappings or "props."

It's just you, sitting in community with others, waiting on the Word of God. And it's a blessed, blessed hour after a stressful week. Quakers used the term "centering" for what happens during a Meeting. You become centered, more connected and more open to listening.

Don't get me wrong. I love traditional worship and sometimes I "need" the structure and liturgy of a "high church" Anglican service. (A Catholic Mass is similar, but I don't often go to Mass because I cannot take communion.)

(I *did* once walk out of a "modern" church service that was using a power-point presentation, complete with bullet points showing the difference between what Jesus said and what the Devil (presumably) would say. I find that the "trendy" contemporary services leave me cold. I don't like worship to feel "gimmicky.")

[Alatar]

Just to say, I'm not mocking or insulting anyone else's chosen form of worship. Its just not my thing.

[Primula Baggins]

Eru, I felt the same way at my son's church (Disciples of Christ) the one time I went—the words on the screen didn't help me, because I didn't know the songs at all. I really wanted the music—not so I could sing harmony, but so I could sing at all! I just stood there feeling stupid.

But, turnabout—I've been to liturgical churches where they didn't put the music into the bulletin, and people unfamiliar with the liturgy were as lost as I was at the DCC church. More lost, because there were also congregational responses they didn't bother putting in that would take a visitor by surprise. (At the end of a reading from the Bible: "The word of the Lord," the reader says, and the congregation responds, "Thanks be to God." I made our church start putting that in the bulletin. )

(1970s joke: you can always recognize Lutherans; you say "The Force be with you," and they automatically respond, "And also with you.")

[PrinceAlarming]

When I got divorced, I realized that we were never again going to have the kind of "family Christmasses" I did when I was a kid and as I envisioned I would when I had my own family. So...I deliberately changed our "traditions." Trying to keep things "the way they were" would have been painful and ultimately counter-productive.

Hey, it's the only way I know how to do Christmas... And we do the turkey stuffing out of Christmas...

I felt connected with god during organized worship while at a Quaker service... I feel most connected with god while doing my job. I don't know who or what has called me, but the best thing I can do to pay homage to whatever calls me is practice what I feel drawn to. For some reason I have been given a gift of skill, interest, and knowledge in my field. So I use it, and I really enjoy it.

I do miss singing hymns, but not because I find that hymns help me spiritually; I just like singing.

I always felt like church service stifled me. I have a hard time connecting with anything when the service is regimented and outlined on a piece of paper you get from the greeter.

Catholic service? Forget it. I once went into a Catholic church to kneel and pray and collect my thoughts. I didn't realize I walked in right before a service was starting. So much standing, kneeling, sitting, saying things that mean nothing to me... By the time it was over I felt more confused and distracted from god and spirituality than ever.

I skipped my next class and meditated in a park for an hour to regain myself.

I support faith. My only stipulations are that you don't rape me with your beliefs, telling people that they are wrong, that there is some tight-rope path to heaven or something, and that you practice a gospel preaching peace, love, and understanding.

Pray to a decoder ring for all I care. Idols? Sure! As long as it spreads a message of peace.

Hey, isn't the crucifix an idol?

[WampusCat]

My major conversation with God when our friends left boiled down to this: Don't leave me here in this church working frantically if it's doomed to die anyway. Don't leave me in a sinking ship. I'll stay and work if there's hope, but I don't want to work so hard for a hopeless thing.

As Mother Teresa said, "God doesn't call us to be successful, he calls us to be faithful."

Nothing is wasted. Whatever work you do is good -- whether or not the church ultimately falls apart. You have no idea what effect one little well-done thing might have on even one person.

I think it matters far less whether you stay or go than whether you work with frantic hopelessness or with trust that God can use what you can give. Wherever you are.

[ArathornJax]

There is a saying that I really like: "God does not require a man or woman to run faster than they have strength."

For me that means keeping a balance between the various parts of my life and not over extending myself in one, at the sacrifice of others. For me, I have to keep myself in balance because if I don't I will overextend myself and in that condition, I do not end up serving God or others in a productive manner.

In terms of church attendance, I go about twice a month right now. Health issues have limited me and I am currently not happy with where I go (as is my wife), and that may be part of it. Also, I am at a point where I question the validity of organized religion versus the importance of living by the Holy Spirit in ones daily life. Besides that discussion on faith, another one would be the role of organized religion versus being religious without being part of an organized religion.

[Primula Baggins]

That could be interesting. For myself I wouldn't want to try to live my faith without the challenges, learning opportunities, delights, and frustrations of community. Sometimes it's wonderful, sustaining. Sometimes it's not—but then it turns out that being pulled out of my comfort zone is exactly what I need. But I know many people have different perspectives and experiences.

[ArathornJax]

In thinking on your post Prim, I view it as having perhaps a different community that is not directly tied to organized religion. For example, serving at a homeless shelter allows one to practice or exercise one's faith, while still being involved with others, and serving them via a ministry. The homeless shelter could be exchanged for many different type of service ministries, for example serving at a Children's Hospital (or any hospital), working with the mentally ill and their families in a religious capacity; working with youth in a highly at risk program to help curb gang involvement, etc. So I guess I am viewing this as not a absence of community, but a different focus on one's ministry for awhile.

I would agree that in many ways a community helps to support, develop, nurture and challenge one's faith and spirituality. I am just wondering if that can be achieved in a non-traditional way, via service in other areas combined with working with others who have faith, especially if time is a constraint? Could this not be one type of ministry that one feels called to do while at the same time forgoing the organized experience during this period? Or is it the concept of being tucked in far from the edge of the bed by being heavily involved in an organized unit of religion needed to ensure one doesn't get to near the edge and then fall out of the bed completely (thus losing one's faith)?

[Primula Baggins]

Oh, I didn't mean to say that only a church community counts, AJ. I was just stating my own experience. I'm a rather shy person, and the advantage of community at church for someone like me is the family-like feeling that I don't need to be perfect or amazing—we're all in this together, and everyone including me has something to offer, which will be accepted. And I'm going to be accepted because I'm part of the "family"—rather than being part of the "family" because I'm accepted, which might be the case if we were all working on a single task together.

It literally does feel like the difference between a family and a club. In a family, you don't choose each other, people can be peculiar and you have to deal with it, and failures happen and are (as a rule) forgiven. You work with what you have, rather than trying to select and mold the group of people you'd like to have. That's what I need, because I'm peculiar.

There are all kinds of ways to live your faith and I would never claim one was better than another. I've just managed to figure out, over the years, what's better for me.

[Lalaith]

Well, I think God was having a bit of a poke at me, as I was contemplating this very thing the other day. I was so fed up with church people. So I stomped over to iTunes on my computer and pulled up a certain Sting song I really like that fit my mood perfectly. In particular, I was thinking of this line:

"Men go crazy in congregations; they only get better one by one."

Yep, that's how I feel. That's the truth! Yep, did you hear that God? I'm going crazy in this church.


So then, my iTunes always being set to shuffle songs, played next a Michael Card song, the main lyric being:

"And the call is to community,
The impoverished power that sets the soul free.
In humility, to take the vow,
that day after day we must take up the basin and the towel."


I was not amused with God's answer.


Wampus, That thought is so profound that it's been rolling around in my head since I read it.


Lali

[ArathornJax]

I'm just kinda of thinking aloud here and find this fascinating as I am at a point in my life where I am re-evaluating where I am spiritually and where I feel I need to be going and doing. I'm just interested in the concept of how people live their faith and if organized religion has to play a role in that.

Prim, your comments are valuable because they offer insight on how you as an individual approach your own spirituality based on who you are. Perhaps my question goes deeper into the notion of 1)what it means to be religious 2) can one be religious without belonging or being active in an organized religion but involved in other ways with people of faith or is being actively engaged in good works one aspect that needs to be combined with being part of an organized unit? I guess for me I've always been involved in an organized unit and I know the benefits and pitfalls for me, and I feel a call to do something more than just be there on Sunday so to say.

[yovargas]

yovi, I will think about how to answer you. Right now, I have to leave to go teach biology to our homeschool co-op kids. It probably does deserve a new thread, or perhaps not.

(I want to ask you about that "mostly-atheist" thing anyway. )

Just sayin'.

[Lalaith]

I thought you were going bike riding?

Just sayin'.


Lali

[yovargas]

Good point!

[Lalaith]

But we keep on keeping on here, because we don't feel a release from God to leave. Not yet, anyway.

Do you think it would be possible to explain this to a mostly-atheist dude like myself?

Okay, fine. I'll give it a shot.

Some of this ties into what Prim was saying above. The church becomes your family, and, just like families, you can love them, "hate" them, etc. But it's hard to completely break away from them; even people in the worst of dysfunctional families struggle with the ties and bonds they feel.

The thing is, we have some really great people in our church family, and we are very much tied into the church as a whole. It would be very painful to sever ties now, so we would have to be very sure it was the best thing to do.

So far, it doesn't feel like God is giving us the go-ahead to move on, to sever those ties.

Now, as to how to explain what that means, that might be trickier. I guess it means that when I pray, I don't sense any clarity or peace with leaving. Neither does Freddy. I guess it means that we keep thinking, "If this happens, then we'll need to leave," and those things don't happen, even though it seems like they will.

For example, the contemporary worship service--we started to get flak from some about doing this, that it wasn't appropriate or that it needed to be voted on by the church as a whole, etc. So we said, "Okay, if the church votes this down, then we are going to leave, because that shows this church is unwilling to change to be relevant to our younger community."

Well, when Freddy brought it to the deacons, they were thrilled. Now, he has to present it to the church tomorrow, and there's a business meeting tomorrow night. So the potential still exists for it to be squashed, but we are surprised at the amount of support we're getting from unexpected corners.

So we have to go, "Okay, guess we're supposed to stick with this."

:shrug:

Lali

[Primula Baggins]

AJ, I do know that when our stewardship committee challenges people to increase the percentage of their income that they give, they don't mean we can only count the dollars that go to our church. Other charities and worthy causes deserve not just our dollars but our time, and people of compassion and conscience from all faiths or none help get the work done. That's still "walking the walk" for a Christian. There doesn't have to be a Christian label on it.

If you feel called to work outside the church, then that's your call, and if it's part of the way your religion expresses itself in your life, then it's religious, I'd say.

Lali, about the song sequence—isn't it frustrating sometimes when the message is that clear? For me it's usually not music, but people (sometimes people on this board) who suddenly start talking about the exact issue I've been struggling with, and say things I need to think about and face, all without any knowledge of how perfectly their words reply to my worries and prayers.

Though usually the reply is not the one I always wish for: "Rest, take a nap! Read a good book! It will all look better in the morning!"

Edit: Cross-posted with Lali