Hell

For discussion of philosophy, religion, spirituality, or any topic that posters wish to approach from a spiritual or religious perspective.
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TheEllipticalDisillusion
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Post by TheEllipticalDisillusion »

While selfishness can lead people to commit acts of wrong, the only problem I have with right's sake being the standard is that it leaves the standard vague. Don't misunderstand me here, I don't think that doing right for its own sake is equivalent to selflessness. Every act of selflessness has a bit of selfishness in it (i.e. if I don't lie, I am a better person for it, so to be a better person I won't lie-- I'm still gaining something from it).
Prim wrote:Integrity and adherence to some external standard of decency, on the other hand, would make a person pass up that selfish act even if it would profit him.
I do agree with you on the surface, except I'd say that it 'might' make a person pass up that selfish act. Even people acting in accordance to an external standard (say the benefit of the King) still might take the selfish act if they can get something out it.

TW, thanks for your first post to me. Those are definitely other valid reasons.

I think every group, at every time, has rewards that are for only those within the group, while the punishments are extended to those outside. For example, take the rights and responsibilities of members here or at b77. Members are entitled to x, y, and z. Guests cannot post and have no claim to x, y or z.

OT: I always enjoy having these kinds of discussions with you, Prim, as well as TW. (Not specifically on why is right, but any kind of question and answer discussion.)

Here's a question: is selfishness negative?
Jnyusa
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Post by Jnyusa »

Here's a question: is selfishness negative?

This question is framed the wrong way.

The choice we are given to make is not between selflessness and selfishness but between short-term self-interest and long-term self-interest.

Prim talked earlier about children needing reward and punishment to show them right from wrong, and adults getting beyond that need for instant karma. That's because adults have a larger repertoire of experienced consequences and they know that their long-term self-interest resides in sustaining the societal relationships to which they belong ... however you define those: marriage, parenthood, neighborhood, citizenship, etc. People functioning as adults do not indulge their short-term self-interest at the expense of their long-term self-interest.

Both children and adults act out of self-interest, but the latter is able to anticipate consequences and avoid situations where the cost will quickly outweigh the gain.

In theory. :) Sometimes the short-term temptation is overwhelming; and I suppose that is where belief in supernatural punishment and reward is helpful to some people to keep them from destroying themselves.

Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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Old_Tom_Bombadil
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Post by Old_Tom_Bombadil »

I usually prefer to express myself in song. This is no exception. ;)

Dere's no hidin' place down dere
Dere's no hidin' place down dere
Oh I went to the rock to hide my face
The rock cried out,"No hidin' place."
Dere's no hidin' place down dere

Oh the rock cried, "I'm burnin' too."
Oh the rock cried, "I'm burnin' too."
Oh the rock cried out, "I'm burnin' too
I want to go to Heaven as well as you."
Dere's no hidin' place down dere

Oh the fox got a hole in the ground
Oh the fox got a hole in the ground
Oh the fox got a hole, the bird got a nest
The fox says, "Dere's no hidin' place."
Dere's no hidin' place down dere

Oh the sinner man he gambled and fell
Oh the sinner man he gambled and fell
Oh, the sinner man gambled, he gambled and fell
Wanted to go to Heaven but he had to go to hell
Well, dere's no hidin' place down dere
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

[Note: I split off Faramond's question about Frodo into a separate thread in the Shibboleth forum: Frodo and Self-Interest - VtF]
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

I wanted to share something here. I know I was very... well, 'difficult' would be putting it nicely... in this thread. But I think it was terribly important to me, in a way I did not completely understand at the time. I am very sorry for having offended people, which I know I certainly did. I believe the idea of Hell sparked something very important and valuable for me, though, and I thank you all for your patience. This is a version of what I posted in the Hell thread on TORC.

First, I apologize to all whom I offended. I truly do. Humbly and sincerely; freely and without reservation. I was out of line a dozen different times, in a dozen different ways, in this thread. I have been trying to understand why, all of a sudden, something that had not bothered me for decades started to feel so important. I rejected religion in all its forms long ago, for excellent reasons - mostly to save my own life and sanity. Religion is very powerful, and can be powerfully harmful as well as powerfully good. (I do not say this is God's fault. :))

I think that, as a result of the deaths of two people I loved very much, and my own impending mortality, I badly needed to revisit spiritual issues. I'm sorry I couldn't be more straightforward about it, but... well.. I might be a little bit crazy. Why should I care what people say about where my friend or brother ends up, since I don't agree? I don't know!

Well, but... I have begun to understand that there are ways to think about spiritual issues that don't involve Hell or punishment or cruelty. (And that it's okay if many or even most people disagree with that.) I have started a journey that interests me very much. I don't think it will end up in me signing up for the Heaven/Hell paradigm - but I have great interest in looking further into the power of beauty, love and transcendence.

Just saying. With thanks and respect. :)
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Thank you for sharing that with us, Ethel. :hug:

I hope that you will continue to share with us about your spiritual journey; I for one would be very interested to hear whatever thoughts you are willing and able to share (and even possibly to compare notes with my own spiritual journey, which is also outside the boundaries of traditional religions).
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

I have to admit, when I saw this particular thread had been bumped, my first thought was... "Ah, HELL!"

:scarey:

Ethel, I am deeply impressed by what you have shared here. It takes a big person to revisit the scene of such emotion and be apologetic for their actions; I just want to take this opportunity to apologize, as well, for anything I wrote that contributed to the pain here.

:hug:

Ethel wrote:But I think it was terribly important to me, in a way I did not completely understand at the time.
That is such an incredible thing to read, Ethel... I cannot tell you how excited I am that this whole abattoir of a thread could have had something so positive come from it. I certainly didn't consider that at the time. It's a funny old world, innit?


Well, but... I have begun to understand that there are ways to think about spiritual issues that don't involve Hell or punishment or cruelty. (And that it's okay if many or even most people disagree with that.)
Yes. Yes there are. And I think you may find that many, MANY people... even many people who contributed to this thread... feel more like that than you might expect. You may end up with more company in your thoughts than you could have possibly believed, Ethel.

I have started a journey that interests me very much. I don't think it will end up in me signing up for the Heaven/Hell paradigm - but I have great interest in looking further into the power of beauty, love and transcendence.
And these are powerful concepts, indeed. :love:


Just saying. With thanks and respect. :)
And you have my thanks and respect right back. Just sayin'. :hug:
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The Watcher
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Post by The Watcher »

I think sometimes one needs to visit their own personal hells to appreciate what true good there is in the world - I am slowly climbing out of one of my own, and it still is a very dark place indeed sometimes that I feel I am facing in my day to day life - if I had health insurance right now, I surely would be on anti depressants. Things are bleak, but I need to get better and fight it - if I do not, no greater power will do it for me. Hell is what we make it to be - humans can do a far greater presentation by themselves than any god would need to do. I simply cannot see that what created us, if anything, could be more harsh than we ourselves are not only to ourselves, but to each other.

My two cents.

Now goes back to semi-permanent lurking...

:cry:
Jnyusa
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Post by Jnyusa »

Watcher, I know exactly where you are coming from. :hug:

For Ethel, too. :hug:


Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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Cerin
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Post by Cerin »

Ethel, thank you for posting. I'm glad things are sorting out for you now. :hug:

The Watcher, I'm sorry to hear you are having such a hard time. :hug:
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

Watcher: :hug:

I wish I could do more. :(
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The Watcher
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Post by The Watcher »

Anthriel wrote:Watcher: :hug:

I wish I could do more. :(
Anthy -

You are you. There is nothing that you need to do different. I wish I shared your optimism and enthusiasm. You have your own hurdles to cross - I wish mine were yours however. Midlife crisis has indeed struck me - I am trying to figure out how exactly to start over, which is what it means. I basically will be starting from ground zero - a hard thing for a forty something to deal with, especially one like me who hates change and does not deal well at all with stress.

Hell, for those of you that subscribe to such notions, is nothing comapred to that, and unless you experience it first hand (this is my second time going through it, you think one should learn.....) this time I am not the eternal optimist, Pollyanna "everything will be okay?" person that I used to be. I am tired, worn out, stressed out, and, in some ways, hating my entire lilfe. That is hell - internal punishment - what our own psyches manage to inflict on us when we fail and do not meet our own self determined standards. Nothing could be worse - hence my sort of circular logic at arriving at many of my religious stances.

There cannot be a benign loving God, such a thing would not let atrocities happen. There cannot be a harsh judgemental God, life already is too unfair and often wrack with pain and anguish that are not deserved. Hence, the whole concept, which I never fully grasped in any case, is something we humans desired and then created only to make ourselves feel better. Why do we otherwise insist on situations which either lead to eternal peace and happiness or eternal suffering? That to me seems entirely too human a construct.

Now, indeed back to lurk mode.....
Ethel
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Post by Ethel »

The Watcher wrote:You are you. There is nothing that you need to do different. I wish I shared your optimism and enthusiasm. You have your own hurdles to cross - I wish mine were yours however. Midlife crisis has indeed struck me - I am trying to figure out how exactly to start over, which is what it means. I basically will be starting from ground zero - a hard thing for a forty something to deal with, especially one like me who hates change and does not deal well at all with stress.
TW... do not despair. My life fell about as completely apart as it's possible for a life to fall in my early 40's. I didn't think I could get through it. I cried so much. Lay on the bed in the fetal position and cried. Marriage wrecked, house wrecked, finances wrecked - everything in ruins. Had to sell my house to pay my debts and start over again with nothing in my pocket and a thoroughly traumatized 10 year old who needed his childhood back.

It took time, but I built a new life. Had some good luck, had some bad, made the best of it, and... I'm quite happy with where I am now. Finally was able to buy another house, and send my kid to college. Both things that seemed impossible just a few short years before. And I did it with no help from anyone. Just worked and saved and took care of my boy. It can be done; you can do it. One day at a time.

Kid will be out of college in a year, I have the best job I've ever had, and I live in one of the most beautiful places in the world. Got there inch by inch, day by day.

I'll tell you one thing that really helped me, though. I did start taking antidepressants that first evil year. It made a difference. Made the bad days manageable and good days possible. I would recommend giving it a try. I know money's tight, but if you tell your doc you don't have insurance, he or she will go easy. (I had nearly a year of unemployment in there, and was without health insurance most of that time, and I know whereof I speak. I was surprised how reasonable my doc was.) My prescription for generic Prozac only costs $15/month.

I'm not saying you should or must, just that it's worth considering. About a year ago I was feeling so well that I went off the antidepressants. Bad mistake. Crashed and burned about December of last year and am only now stabilizing. I won't make that mistake again. Some people just need a little help - some temporarily; others, like me, permanently. It's no disgrace. If you had diabetes you'd take insulin without a second thought. It's the same thing, except it's brain chemistry.

Write to me if you want to talk more. I do know, and I know there's hope. :)
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Teremia
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Post by Teremia »

Dear Watcher -- as the Quakers say, you speak to my condition.

Dear Ethel -- so do you. :)

My own mother was in utter despair at one point, when she was fifty-something. My father had left, and the previous thirty years of her life seemed meaningless, and she didn't want to go on living, she just didn't. However, she just hung in there (this fellow talking about happiness on the radio the other day said, "my best advice if you're not happy is just to hang in there until you get older -- studies show older people are happier, believe it or not"), and she kept living, and her life turned around. To her utter surprise, I'm sure, her last decade was her best one: she found someone who truly loved her (for the first time in her life!), she went on adventures all around the world, she became a very beloved teacher and grandmother.

We must hang in there -- because you never know, sometimes (though it can be hard to believe during the dark times, when everything goes wrong and the light is weak and gray) unpredictable good things happen. So they tell me! So I have actually seen happen in my mother's life!

Aw, that sounds like I'm lecturing, but all the finger-wagging is directed at myself, could you but stretch your head through the network far enough to see... :D

and only sympathy and affection directed at you...

:hug:
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Lidless
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Post by Lidless »

Given the number of posts and the emotions it seems to cause, this is definitely a hot issue.
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Teremia
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Post by Teremia »

I think we've decided that hell is a midlife crisis, or, rather, that midlife crises can be hell.

so true

;)
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