This forum has been very quiet, but I wanted to bring a spiritual crisis here to lay at your wise feet.
I had an oddly horrible thing happen to me a couple of days ago. I bought a used academic book that looked like it was right up my alley, work-wise, and opened up even with a flicker of contentment and expectation -- and there suddenly were the most horrible, traumatizing images I have ever seen in my life (pictures of torture) -- there was NOTHING on the book's cover or in its topic that would make you think that might be coming. I felt actually as if I were going into shock. I stood up. It came to me as a clear and certain truth that this world is hell, I mean literally hell. If I had been given the choice at that moment, I would really just have died, because a world where such things can happen is no place to be. I snapped the book shut and put it on a high shelf. I don't know whether to try to throw the book out or tear those pages out and destroy them (but without looking at them again, somehow). And the feeling of trauma persists.
How can one exist in a world like this? Only by forgetting what people do to each other. And the people doing these things had God's light in them, presumably. How could that happen?
I've always been sensitive to violent images, I know. I am still traumatized by images I saw (from Vietnam, from WWII) as a child and can't really speak about.
(I looked at Amazon later that day, and one of the book's reviewers actually says,"Those four pictures have destroyed any faith I ever had in human beings, they will probably do the same to you if you are unfortunate enough to ever see them." Too late for me. Sheesh, who's there to protect us in the used bookstore?)
I spoke of my trouble to a Quaker friend who is also a Buddhist, and her take was that Buddhism was the only religion that really could deal with suffering properly, since the basic law of the world, according to the Buddhists, is suffering, and we must work towards compassion and nonattachment.
I understand the need to open oneself up to the world's pain, to compassion; that is what most searingly gripped me when I saw those images, just terrible grief that that poor woman had to go through all that, and then the agony of knowing that my compassion could do her absolutely no good.
I have been reading again in the Buddhist books I wrestle with all the time, and it's amazing how much of a chip on my shoulder I have about "nonattachment." I take it very personally (I realize): I feel abandoned. This is some kind of misunderstanding of Buddhism, I'm sure, but it comes back and hits me every time I read more. The part of me that loves people in particular (and not just in general) is not something I want to give up. Really, it seems to me that if you take Buddhism to an extreme, the terrible things happening in the world might cease to "matter," somehow! (I am wrong; I know it -- but I am struggling with this.)
Forgive me my wandering! The question is: what do we do with the immense and nonsensical suffering human beings inflict upon each other? I reject thinking of this as the Will of God (I reject any notion of a God who can do things for people or answer prayers: that would mean that every unanswered cry of suffering was also his responsibility. That seems like blasphemy to me); I know we can't control these things either, just by being good or making good choices (awful things will still happen). I am floundering. Help.
Understanding Suffering
-
ToshoftheWuffingas
- Posts: 1579
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:34 pm
Intellectually you already knew that bad things happen. You were just unfortunate to open a door and see first hand a tiny fragment more closely. Think of firemen, police, forensic pathologists and therapists who look into that door as part of their working lives. Or think of the multitude of animals who eat each other and are eaten at the end of their lives since time immemorial. This is indeed a world of suffering and it is only good, pity, empathy, love and kindness that shine light into it.
I read as I grew into adulthood about the fate of the victims of Hitler and Stalin. I hear enough about the ills of the world but at a certain point I have to look away. I say to myself that I have been down that path, I know what happens and I will not be cruel to myself to look unblinking again at human callousness. I could not take it without harm. I could not even think for long on the fate of the victims of the Kashmir earthquake, dying alone over days without rescue.
All one can do with Hell is to fight its works both for the sake of its victims and for one's own self respect.
I read as I grew into adulthood about the fate of the victims of Hitler and Stalin. I hear enough about the ills of the world but at a certain point I have to look away. I say to myself that I have been down that path, I know what happens and I will not be cruel to myself to look unblinking again at human callousness. I could not take it without harm. I could not even think for long on the fate of the victims of the Kashmir earthquake, dying alone over days without rescue.
All one can do with Hell is to fight its works both for the sake of its victims and for one's own self respect.
-
Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
Re: Understanding Suffering
I am so sorry you saw those images. I am another such person, who can be marked horribly by a fleeting image of something—it's why I don't watch certain films or read certain books. I think it does dull people's compassion and sensitivity to deliberately expose themselves to that.Teremia wrote:Forgive me my wandering! The question is: what do we do with the immense and nonsensical suffering human beings inflict upon each other? I reject thinking of this as the Will of God (I reject any notion of a God who can do things for people or answer prayers: that would mean that every unanswered cry of suffering was also his responsibility. That seems like blasphemy to me); I know we can't control these things either, just by being good or making good choices (awful things will still happen). I am floundering. Help.
My take: Of course the torture is not the will of God, any more than the horrors of the Asian tsunami or other natural disasters full of suffering and tragedy. The torture is part of the reality of the universe in which we live: though God rules it, it is subject to natural laws and to the actions humans take when they have free will and evil intention. This means there will be pain and horror and suffering.
No, we can't put an end to these things by making good choices or being good. But we have an obligation to prevent and ease suffering where we can. Working to carry out this obligation is the best comfort I can think of, though far from a complete one. "This evil still exists, but the world within my control is a small bit better today because I did X and Y." The evil probably far outweighs our little efforts, but that doesn't mean they don't matter.
We are called to compassion. It's that very ability that hurts us, when we must confront evil. But we're no less called. If we had the chance to act against the evil you saw, even at the price of our own lives, that would be our call. Most of us don't have the chance. But we must do what we can where we are.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
-
truehobbit
- Cute, cuddly and dangerous to know
- Posts: 6019
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:52 am
- Contact:
Teremia, I know what you mean about being traumatised by such images or descriptions (words do the same for me) - I don't think I've ever reacted quite the way you do, but I agree that just realising that such horror is possible can be both physically and psychologically very upsetting.
(And of course I wonder what pics they were.
)
I completely agree with what Tosh and Prim said, very beautifully put, too.
I think it's impossible to really face these things more than absolutely necessary - a single person can't face all the evils of the world and shouldn't, I think - but that doesn't mean to ignore them either, of course.
Hmmh, I must say that I think that the idea of Buddhism of non-attachment (which seems a lot like stoicism), while probably helpful in dealing with such horrors, is exactly the wrong way to arrive at active compassion. Being dispassionate is certainly a good and mature thing to be, to a certain degree, but in getting rid of the pain of being human you also get rid of the good things about being human, I think, and you can't be compassionate if you don't love.
How it is possible that people actually commit such atrocities on other people is beyond me, too. I guess that people's imagination for evil knows no limits, and if you put them in a situation where they can act on their ideas with impunity, there are people who will do that. It could seem that, seeing that imagination is a particular human trait, such cruelty is what defines humans, but I do think that committing such cruelty means to abandon all claim to humanity, because, IMO, humanity implies empathy.
(And of course I wonder what pics they were.
)I completely agree with what Tosh and Prim said, very beautifully put, too.
I think it's impossible to really face these things more than absolutely necessary - a single person can't face all the evils of the world and shouldn't, I think - but that doesn't mean to ignore them either, of course.
Hmmh, I must say that I think that the idea of Buddhism of non-attachment (which seems a lot like stoicism), while probably helpful in dealing with such horrors, is exactly the wrong way to arrive at active compassion. Being dispassionate is certainly a good and mature thing to be, to a certain degree, but in getting rid of the pain of being human you also get rid of the good things about being human, I think, and you can't be compassionate if you don't love.
How it is possible that people actually commit such atrocities on other people is beyond me, too. I guess that people's imagination for evil knows no limits, and if you put them in a situation where they can act on their ideas with impunity, there are people who will do that. It could seem that, seeing that imagination is a particular human trait, such cruelty is what defines humans, but I do think that committing such cruelty means to abandon all claim to humanity, because, IMO, humanity implies empathy.
I have often thought that if the Earth could speak, the ground beneath our feet, we would not be able to bear what it had to say.
I can accept or internalize the "necessary" or "inevitable" suffering that comes with life. There is disease and there are accidents and there is death, and those are all painful and mostly just a part of life. There are the pains of love and heartbreak, which we cannot escape. We must often only endure, there is no use in crying over what cannot be helped.
But the deliberate causing of pain is something "apart". I never like to use the word Evil, but what other word can we use? Is it part of human nature? Is it possible that on some golden day when all children are loved and nutured, there will be no more of it? Or is there indeed some force or power of Evil that works on us?
Like others here, there are books and movies and images I will not look at. I have seen enough to know I don't want to see more.
There is much we cannot do, but there is much we can do. We can each strive to cause no pain, at least. We should relieve what suffering we can. What we are meant to do about the rest is beyond me.
I can accept or internalize the "necessary" or "inevitable" suffering that comes with life. There is disease and there are accidents and there is death, and those are all painful and mostly just a part of life. There are the pains of love and heartbreak, which we cannot escape. We must often only endure, there is no use in crying over what cannot be helped.
But the deliberate causing of pain is something "apart". I never like to use the word Evil, but what other word can we use? Is it part of human nature? Is it possible that on some golden day when all children are loved and nutured, there will be no more of it? Or is there indeed some force or power of Evil that works on us?
Like others here, there are books and movies and images I will not look at. I have seen enough to know I don't want to see more.
There is much we cannot do, but there is much we can do. We can each strive to cause no pain, at least. We should relieve what suffering we can. What we are meant to do about the rest is beyond me.
Dig deeper.
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46144
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
My dear Teremia, there was a reason why you purchased this book and had to view these images, horrible as the experience has been for you. I don't pretend to know what that reason is, but I am never been more confident of anything in my life.
I too am one that am very sensitive to these types of things (overly sensitive, some would say, and have). But I find a ray of Hope in this thread, and even in your very horror about contemplating what they signify about humankind's capacity for cruelty. It is in that sense of outrage that you feel that I see Hope, because it reminds me that I have sisters and brothers all over the world who feel similarly to me.
Arda is Marred; there is no getting around it. And each of us are touched by that Marring. Some are more touched then others. All that we can do is do the good that we do, and Hope that it is enough to balance the Evil that exists.
That's all that we can do.
I too am one that am very sensitive to these types of things (overly sensitive, some would say, and have). But I find a ray of Hope in this thread, and even in your very horror about contemplating what they signify about humankind's capacity for cruelty. It is in that sense of outrage that you feel that I see Hope, because it reminds me that I have sisters and brothers all over the world who feel similarly to me.
Arda is Marred; there is no getting around it. And each of us are touched by that Marring. Some are more touched then others. All that we can do is do the good that we do, and Hope that it is enough to balance the Evil that exists.
That's all that we can do.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Teremia, I don't know.
I have a very low tolerance for violent images, even "mild", pretend violence of action movies. I never saw Schindler's List. I couldn't face it. To me, it was not a National Geographic "far away" story. It was about the way my grandfather's family died. I listen to my grandparents, ILs, their friends talk about the relatives who were murdered by the Nazis, and - curse this active imagination of mine - I can see what it means when they say "and they shot them and threw them down the mine shaft". I have nightmares about it. If I lived then, it would have been me. If it happens again, it WILL be me, and the way the world stands today gives me no assurance that it will not happen. It used to be frightening, but now that I have a son it's unbearable. That's why I stick to escapist stories in fiction, preferrably with a happy ending.
And what is the answer? I don't know. I don't understand it. Striking out in anger or self-defense, yes. But deliberate, purposeful infliction of pain is beyond my comprehension. One thing that gives me hope is the reaction that Teremia and Prim spoke about. Not just recoiling in horror, not just crying out to heaven asking how this could happen. But asking what can we do about this. Even if what we can do is very little in this vast word.
I know little about Buddhism and most of it second hand. I heard the message of detachment, of having no expectations, and I probably misunderstand it. Jewish faith, especially in Reform congregations, centers around the concept of "tikkun olam", healing the world - humans bringing harmony into the imperfect world through loving deeds. Realistically, I think it is the only hope we have.
I have a very low tolerance for violent images, even "mild", pretend violence of action movies. I never saw Schindler's List. I couldn't face it. To me, it was not a National Geographic "far away" story. It was about the way my grandfather's family died. I listen to my grandparents, ILs, their friends talk about the relatives who were murdered by the Nazis, and - curse this active imagination of mine - I can see what it means when they say "and they shot them and threw them down the mine shaft". I have nightmares about it. If I lived then, it would have been me. If it happens again, it WILL be me, and the way the world stands today gives me no assurance that it will not happen. It used to be frightening, but now that I have a son it's unbearable. That's why I stick to escapist stories in fiction, preferrably with a happy ending.
And what is the answer? I don't know. I don't understand it. Striking out in anger or self-defense, yes. But deliberate, purposeful infliction of pain is beyond my comprehension. One thing that gives me hope is the reaction that Teremia and Prim spoke about. Not just recoiling in horror, not just crying out to heaven asking how this could happen. But asking what can we do about this. Even if what we can do is very little in this vast word.
I know little about Buddhism and most of it second hand. I heard the message of detachment, of having no expectations, and I probably misunderstand it. Jewish faith, especially in Reform congregations, centers around the concept of "tikkun olam", healing the world - humans bringing harmony into the imperfect world through loving deeds. Realistically, I think it is the only hope we have.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
-
Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
- Posts: 46144
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
- Contact:
I am so grateful to all of you for your deep kindness -- it is such a reminder of what is good. Thank you so much.
It is the pang of such human goodness coexisting with the cruelty around us that gets to my heart. Is the good, loving side of humanity enough to counterbalance the harm we do? Would the world be better off without us? Or is that just the wrong way to think about these things -- because, after all, here we are, and all we can do, as so many of you remind us, is try to heal harms as best we may in the corner of the universe nearest to us.
Like Prim and Frelga, I can't see violent movies without great trouble. This is a problem for me, since film is actually my field (early film! silent film!), but I got into film almost by accident, and it's been my nature since childhood not to be able to watch violent scenes happily just because they're "just pretend." I realized this weekend that the reason I have that defect is because I can't forget that every single horrible thing we see even in the most fantastic horror film has been done at some point by some real person to another real person. And that just doesn't leave my mind.
I have to go into work now, still feeling very shaky, but not so alone -- thank you!
It is the pang of such human goodness coexisting with the cruelty around us that gets to my heart. Is the good, loving side of humanity enough to counterbalance the harm we do? Would the world be better off without us? Or is that just the wrong way to think about these things -- because, after all, here we are, and all we can do, as so many of you remind us, is try to heal harms as best we may in the corner of the universe nearest to us.
Like Prim and Frelga, I can't see violent movies without great trouble. This is a problem for me, since film is actually my field (early film! silent film!), but I got into film almost by accident, and it's been my nature since childhood not to be able to watch violent scenes happily just because they're "just pretend." I realized this weekend that the reason I have that defect is because I can't forget that every single horrible thing we see even in the most fantastic horror film has been done at some point by some real person to another real person. And that just doesn't leave my mind.
I have to go into work now, still feeling very shaky, but not so alone -- thank you!
"If we knew all, we could not bear to live." Andre Malreaux
Teremia, I had to change my profession to get away from some of the things you are talking about - not torture, thank God, because that had ended in Nicaragua by the time I got there - but the wanton violence against innocent people, the callous indifference of my fellow Americans who funded and applauded it, the impatience of my colleagues toward any discussion of justice, the overt and covert hostility and violent leanings of those who claimed to be opposed to the suffering but really just wanted it to happen to a different group of people ... I reached the point where I could not bear to live any longer inside that distorted reality and had to back away for the sake of myself and my family.
We each of us do what we can to mitigate the suffering that confronts us, and we have to accept, I guess, that why there is such evil in this world is not something given to us to fully understand while we are in this world.
Lillian Hellman listed among the great human questions: "Why was Iago so evil?"
We can give no universal answer to this question because we are limited by the narrowness and brevity of our physical perspective.
I also struggle with the first noble truth of Buddhism ... I do not wish others to be detached from my suffering, and it certainly feels like abdication when I detach myself from the suffering of those whom I know personally.
But perhaps the point of that noble truth is not detachment from suffering but detachment from a particular kind of question about suffering. We can ask "why is this particular suffering happening," because the answer can be revealed though dilligent seeking after the truth, and the answer can be used to alleviate that suffering, or at least deter its recurrence in the future. But if we inquire too broadly about the nature of the world, we will not be able to bear the answer. Then we become ineffectual as human beings.
I think that some people are 'called' to remove themselves from the world, and they are able to do so, and their effectuality takes place perhaps on some different plane. But not all of us are so called. I am not. I could never disengage completely. So I have to manage my vision, so to speak, in order to remain effectual.
The worst of it is that we can't even reallly know, in most cases, whether our engagement and compassion has been effectual ... we can only strive to be true to what we believe and hope that it has some meaning.
Jn
Teremia, I had to change my profession to get away from some of the things you are talking about - not torture, thank God, because that had ended in Nicaragua by the time I got there - but the wanton violence against innocent people, the callous indifference of my fellow Americans who funded and applauded it, the impatience of my colleagues toward any discussion of justice, the overt and covert hostility and violent leanings of those who claimed to be opposed to the suffering but really just wanted it to happen to a different group of people ... I reached the point where I could not bear to live any longer inside that distorted reality and had to back away for the sake of myself and my family.
We each of us do what we can to mitigate the suffering that confronts us, and we have to accept, I guess, that why there is such evil in this world is not something given to us to fully understand while we are in this world.
Lillian Hellman listed among the great human questions: "Why was Iago so evil?"
We can give no universal answer to this question because we are limited by the narrowness and brevity of our physical perspective.
I also struggle with the first noble truth of Buddhism ... I do not wish others to be detached from my suffering, and it certainly feels like abdication when I detach myself from the suffering of those whom I know personally.
But perhaps the point of that noble truth is not detachment from suffering but detachment from a particular kind of question about suffering. We can ask "why is this particular suffering happening," because the answer can be revealed though dilligent seeking after the truth, and the answer can be used to alleviate that suffering, or at least deter its recurrence in the future. But if we inquire too broadly about the nature of the world, we will not be able to bear the answer. Then we become ineffectual as human beings.
I think that some people are 'called' to remove themselves from the world, and they are able to do so, and their effectuality takes place perhaps on some different plane. But not all of us are so called. I am not. I could never disengage completely. So I have to manage my vision, so to speak, in order to remain effectual.
The worst of it is that we can't even reallly know, in most cases, whether our engagement and compassion has been effectual ... we can only strive to be true to what we believe and hope that it has some meaning.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
Hum I view the detachment in Buddhism a bit differently. I view it as all though bad things happen we must realize that the suffering is temporary and that even though its bad there is some leason to learn, some small piece of knowledge there, even if its the knowledge that what is happening is horrible.
I know that evil exists, it preverts the human mind to do evil against others. I have lived through evil things. I often used to ask myself why but as I have grown older I know realize that people are evil and do evil things, and that even though I was a victim my soul is my own. Trama is a horrible thing to have happen, but I know that even though someone can destroy my body, they can not destroy my soul. I think that is why surviors tell stories so often to younger people, so they can know that a soul can not be broken unless you believe the lies of evil.
Its like in The Color Purple when Celie realizes everything Albert did to her had already been done to him and says so. And then says, I'm poor, black, I might even be ugly, but dear God, I'm here. I'm here. After everything that has been done to here she comes to realize she's here.
I think that is what we must remember. Regardless of what others do to us, and how evil things may happen in the world. We're here. We're here and its for a reason, and part of that reason may be to understand suffering. We can not tell yet, we don't have that knowledge yet and that is what I think the detachment is all about, yes this body maybe broken by the evil deeds of evil men, but we can not let them destroy our souls, because we're here. We are wanted to be here, not by the evil, but by the good and pure and wonderful. That does not gaurentee evil will not happen, it tells us that even though we suffer through the hands of evil, they did not choose us, good did.
And we can never fully understand someone elses suffering, we can only understand our own suffering.
Evil is aggressive.
I know that evil exists, it preverts the human mind to do evil against others. I have lived through evil things. I often used to ask myself why but as I have grown older I know realize that people are evil and do evil things, and that even though I was a victim my soul is my own. Trama is a horrible thing to have happen, but I know that even though someone can destroy my body, they can not destroy my soul. I think that is why surviors tell stories so often to younger people, so they can know that a soul can not be broken unless you believe the lies of evil.
Its like in The Color Purple when Celie realizes everything Albert did to her had already been done to him and says so. And then says, I'm poor, black, I might even be ugly, but dear God, I'm here. I'm here. After everything that has been done to here she comes to realize she's here.
I think that is what we must remember. Regardless of what others do to us, and how evil things may happen in the world. We're here. We're here and its for a reason, and part of that reason may be to understand suffering. We can not tell yet, we don't have that knowledge yet and that is what I think the detachment is all about, yes this body maybe broken by the evil deeds of evil men, but we can not let them destroy our souls, because we're here. We are wanted to be here, not by the evil, but by the good and pure and wonderful. That does not gaurentee evil will not happen, it tells us that even though we suffer through the hands of evil, they did not choose us, good did.
And we can never fully understand someone elses suffering, we can only understand our own suffering.
Evil is aggressive.
See, the part I can't accept, won't accept, is that there might be a being who could stop it and doesn't. I'm better off, in my own mind and heart, not believing that. Belief would rachet up the misery to a level that really is unbearable. Blind chance, that I can take. A plan? I can't. It's beyond me. That may be my loss, but that's just it: it's my loss.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I would rather be wrong than to pretend to believe, I would rather be wrong than to spend my life being angry with God, or trying to wrap my mind around a God who would create anyone or anything to suffer. We talked about this long ago on Torc, when we were talking about Gollum.
I don't mean to offend those who believe, and I envy you the comfort it seems to bring. I often feel like a legless woman that is expected to run a marathon. Some things are impossible.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I would rather be wrong than to pretend to believe, I would rather be wrong than to spend my life being angry with God, or trying to wrap my mind around a God who would create anyone or anything to suffer. We talked about this long ago on Torc, when we were talking about Gollum.
I don't mean to offend those who believe, and I envy you the comfort it seems to bring. I often feel like a legless woman that is expected to run a marathon. Some things are impossible.
Dig deeper.
vison wrote:
For my part, I find it more difficult to accept that humans inflict pain deliberately on other humans or look away when an atrocious act is being committed. I know it happens - intellectually as Tosh said - but knowing and accepting are two different things. I find it devastating to think that a human being has reached such a low level that can torture another being. And then go home, hug his/her children and have lunch.
Life is not black or white. Maybe the torturer had to do the act because he would be in trouble if he didn't, or he believed he did his country a favour and acting for the greater good. We humans are very good with developing psychological coping strategies and compartmentalising (is there such a word?). But that is part of the trouble - we believe the excuses we give to ourselves to make us feel better and we think that this is the truth.
In response to Padme's post, I would say that I don't believe that people are evil. They are capable of doing evil and thinking evil, but they - their soul - is not evil. Because that would make me evil and I don't feel that I am. I do not believe that there are evil souls. And those who commit evil are not in touch with their souls at the time of the act - otherwise they would know that what they are about to do is an evil act and they probably wouldn't go on.
And here end my random thinking.
By that are you referring to God or another human being?See, the part I can't accept, won't accept, is that there might be a being who could stop it and doesn't.
For my part, I find it more difficult to accept that humans inflict pain deliberately on other humans or look away when an atrocious act is being committed. I know it happens - intellectually as Tosh said - but knowing and accepting are two different things. I find it devastating to think that a human being has reached such a low level that can torture another being. And then go home, hug his/her children and have lunch.
Life is not black or white. Maybe the torturer had to do the act because he would be in trouble if he didn't, or he believed he did his country a favour and acting for the greater good. We humans are very good with developing psychological coping strategies and compartmentalising (is there such a word?). But that is part of the trouble - we believe the excuses we give to ourselves to make us feel better and we think that this is the truth.
In response to Padme's post, I would say that I don't believe that people are evil. They are capable of doing evil and thinking evil, but they - their soul - is not evil. Because that would make me evil and I don't feel that I am. I do not believe that there are evil souls. And those who commit evil are not in touch with their souls at the time of the act - otherwise they would know that what they are about to do is an evil act and they probably wouldn't go on.
And here end my random thinking.
-
truehobbit
- Cute, cuddly and dangerous to know
- Posts: 6019
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:52 am
- Contact:
I think I'm somewhere in the middle between Andri and Padme on the "evil" bit - I do think people can be so bad that their soul is completely corrupted, "evil" if you want. Whether that's all their own doing, or partly the result of things done to them is a different question.
But I guess something that I can't bring myself to believe is that such people are still fully human. For my peace of mind I need to imagine that they aren't really human.
However, in Padme's post - please correct me if I get it wrong, Padme! - it sounds as if "evil" was a force of its own, something outside people that can corrupt them, like an acid corrupts a material. That's a concept I can't really understand, either.
I think Celie's reaction, which you quote, Padme, is a great example of why we are still here in the first place! When I read about suffering and torture, I always wonder how people can go through that - and live!
I think the resilience of humans is one of the most astounding things - and a good thing, too!
There are many different concepts of God, of course, but, with respect to the evil people do to each other, the way I picture it, it's not a question of stopping it!
The way I see it, God can't stop it, because if He did we would not be free people. It would make everything pointless. It's up to us to do the right thing, and no one is going to take the responsibility to make the right decision away from us!
(I hope I'm not being preachy, btw! )
But I guess something that I can't bring myself to believe is that such people are still fully human. For my peace of mind I need to imagine that they aren't really human.
However, in Padme's post - please correct me if I get it wrong, Padme! - it sounds as if "evil" was a force of its own, something outside people that can corrupt them, like an acid corrupts a material. That's a concept I can't really understand, either.
I think Celie's reaction, which you quote, Padme, is a great example of why we are still here in the first place! When I read about suffering and torture, I always wonder how people can go through that - and live!
I think the resilience of humans is one of the most astounding things - and a good thing, too!
vison, that's not offensive, but I think it's the wrong way of looking at it.See, the part I can't accept, won't accept, is that there might be a being who could stop it and doesn't.
There are many different concepts of God, of course, but, with respect to the evil people do to each other, the way I picture it, it's not a question of stopping it!
The way I see it, God can't stop it, because if He did we would not be free people. It would make everything pointless. It's up to us to do the right thing, and no one is going to take the responsibility to make the right decision away from us!
(I hope I'm not being preachy, btw!
)Hmmh, I must have missed that - maybe we could talk about it again here - sounds fascinating!We talked about this long ago on Torc, when we were talking about Gollum.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
Nor, you're not being preachy. But there is a yawning gulf between us. I have no way of understanding the notion that religious people have of "free will".
For myself, I think I DO have free will. I know there are many things that affect my personality and nature, that much of what I do I do almost by instinct or from unconscious causes. But if I stop to think about what I'm doing, I have free will. No deity in my universe has known from the beginning what I'm going to do, nor has any deity any power to punish or reward me, nor love me, for that matter.
There are so many different concepts of God, and of any god's powers and desires. Some seem barbaric to me. Some seem pointless, since they remove the god from any responsibility for what it has created. I have heard some believers assert that the god has somehow no power to interfere, nor wish to do so, since its creations enjoy "free will".
The term "Islam" is Arabic for "surrender" or "submission". . Humans were created to serve and be obedient to God, but in their pride they presume equal partnership with the divine, or reject God entirely. The believer, by contrast, finds salvation in surrendering to God's will.
(Emphasis mine, of course.) The bolded assertion is much like, or even exactly like what I have seen most Christians profess. And it is in that very bolded sentence that I get lost. The rest of it just adds to my confusion.
Since I have no belief, I have no God to question or be angry at. I think we humans must be responsible for ourselves and what we do. I think our "evolution" since we became reasoning beings has been a long, slow struggle to answer the most important question: "How may I live a good life?" (We all believe that will bring us to that ephemeral state of "happiness".)
From attempting to answer that question has come religion and philosophy, concepts of morality, law, and justice. We are becoming willing and/or able to recognize the humanity of everyone, of granting the rights and privileges of humanity to all. We are, I hope and believe, slowly ending the separation of ourselves and our "tribe" from "the other". When you are able to recognize "the other" as being like yourself, he cannot be your enemy. Was it not what Jesus meant when he said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself"? I always thought the words were badly translated, that what he must have said was, "Respect your neighbour, he is like you."
As for understanding suffering, well, sometimes there is no understanding. I think it is wrong to deny the humanity of some of the monsters who have lived among us, though. It is painful to admit that Hitler or Hussein were only men, no more, and no less. We are not much like them at their worst, but they are like us in most ways.
I don't think we are all monsters, nor are most of us capable of great evil. Some people are. Maybe there is a reason that will be understood one day, apart from the obvious reason: those to whom evil is done will do evil.
Surely there is enough suffering by chance that no one should ever suffer by purpose. Maybe we'll get there one day.
For myself, I think I DO have free will. I know there are many things that affect my personality and nature, that much of what I do I do almost by instinct or from unconscious causes. But if I stop to think about what I'm doing, I have free will. No deity in my universe has known from the beginning what I'm going to do, nor has any deity any power to punish or reward me, nor love me, for that matter.
There are so many different concepts of God, and of any god's powers and desires. Some seem barbaric to me. Some seem pointless, since they remove the god from any responsibility for what it has created. I have heard some believers assert that the god has somehow no power to interfere, nor wish to do so, since its creations enjoy "free will".
The term "Islam" is Arabic for "surrender" or "submission". . Humans were created to serve and be obedient to God, but in their pride they presume equal partnership with the divine, or reject God entirely. The believer, by contrast, finds salvation in surrendering to God's will.
(Emphasis mine, of course.) The bolded assertion is much like, or even exactly like what I have seen most Christians profess. And it is in that very bolded sentence that I get lost. The rest of it just adds to my confusion.
Since I have no belief, I have no God to question or be angry at. I think we humans must be responsible for ourselves and what we do. I think our "evolution" since we became reasoning beings has been a long, slow struggle to answer the most important question: "How may I live a good life?" (We all believe that will bring us to that ephemeral state of "happiness".)
From attempting to answer that question has come religion and philosophy, concepts of morality, law, and justice. We are becoming willing and/or able to recognize the humanity of everyone, of granting the rights and privileges of humanity to all. We are, I hope and believe, slowly ending the separation of ourselves and our "tribe" from "the other". When you are able to recognize "the other" as being like yourself, he cannot be your enemy. Was it not what Jesus meant when he said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself"? I always thought the words were badly translated, that what he must have said was, "Respect your neighbour, he is like you."
As for understanding suffering, well, sometimes there is no understanding. I think it is wrong to deny the humanity of some of the monsters who have lived among us, though. It is painful to admit that Hitler or Hussein were only men, no more, and no less. We are not much like them at their worst, but they are like us in most ways.
I don't think we are all monsters, nor are most of us capable of great evil. Some people are. Maybe there is a reason that will be understood one day, apart from the obvious reason: those to whom evil is done will do evil.
Surely there is enough suffering by chance that no one should ever suffer by purpose. Maybe we'll get there one day.
Dig deeper.
That's strange. Because I too, like so many other people here, cannot bear seeing horrible images, images of torture. I too avoid films or books likely to contain such images. They would shake me too much.
I know that suffering exists, but I cannot accept it.
What can we do? Not much, and I think that we must accept that we cannot do much. However, that not much is still something, and here it is:
(i) We can have children who will also not accept suffering. By having and raising kids who will become good people, we can redeem part of the world, by giving it a new hope.
(ii) We can transmit to whoever is around us our views that torture, violence and suffering are unacceptable and should be stopped, in the hope that these views will passed from one Man to another, like a light.
I know that suffering exists, but I cannot accept it.
What can we do? Not much, and I think that we must accept that we cannot do much. However, that not much is still something, and here it is:
(i) We can have children who will also not accept suffering. By having and raising kids who will become good people, we can redeem part of the world, by giving it a new hope.
(ii) We can transmit to whoever is around us our views that torture, violence and suffering are unacceptable and should be stopped, in the hope that these views will passed from one Man to another, like a light.
-
Rowanberry
- Bregalad's Lost Entwife
- Posts: 1091
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:15 pm
- Location: Rooted in the northern woods
- Contact:
After reading the deep and thoughtful posts in this thread, I feel that my contribution is downright stupid, but anyway:
I am also one who can't stand images of violence and torture - I can even become anguished of verbal descriptions of cruelty - and, I firmly believe that, what the pictures that Teremia saw made her feel is exactly what a "normal", mentally healthy person should feel.
It is hard to say what makes some people become torturers. My conception is though that, to cause pain and suffering to other human beings (or any living creatures, for that matter) requires the ability to totally dehumanize the victims. A total lack of empathy - treating people like things.
I'm also afraid that most people have this ability; but, most of us can and will control it and subdue it. Those who won't seem to have lost something very essential for humanity.
I am also one who can't stand images of violence and torture - I can even become anguished of verbal descriptions of cruelty - and, I firmly believe that, what the pictures that Teremia saw made her feel is exactly what a "normal", mentally healthy person should feel.
It is hard to say what makes some people become torturers. My conception is though that, to cause pain and suffering to other human beings (or any living creatures, for that matter) requires the ability to totally dehumanize the victims. A total lack of empathy - treating people like things.
I'm also afraid that most people have this ability; but, most of us can and will control it and subdue it. Those who won't seem to have lost something very essential for humanity.
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
~ Lao Tzu
Good points, Semrini.Semprini wrote:What can we do? Not much, and I think that we must accept that we cannot do much. However, that not much is still something, and here it is:
(i) We can have children who will also not accept suffering. By having and raising kids who will become good people, we can redeem part of the world, by giving it a new hope.
(ii) We can transmit to whoever is around us our views that torture, violence and suffering are unacceptable and should be stopped, in the hope that these views will passed from one Man to another, like a light.
But I believe that we can do more than that, on a practical level and at the present moment. There are people out there and organisations that work towards ending torture and helping the victims. You can read about their actions on the net and you can help - by donating money or some of your time.
I have no great wisdom, though lots here has been shared. All I have is empathy. I'm exactly like that; such images would hurt me and disturb me terribly.
Don't lose faith in humanity, please. No, such things are not the Will of God, at least I do not believe it so. God knows these things happen, as we all do, but that does not mean He would will His children to suffer. I know my children may suffer because that is the way of the world, but I would never will it to be; no loving parent would.
If you are a praying person, you may ask for peace, you may ask that He take your hurt from you. If you are a meditating person, you may meditate on peace and freeing yourself of the pain of those images.
Experiences like yours are so humbling, they make us feel so helpless and small. They make us wish for something comforting like a parent's reassuring hug as when we were small. For me, that reassurance comes from prayer and meditation, from hugging my own children and from working for peace in my own world.
I'm so sorry you're hurting.
Don't lose faith in humanity, please. No, such things are not the Will of God, at least I do not believe it so. God knows these things happen, as we all do, but that does not mean He would will His children to suffer. I know my children may suffer because that is the way of the world, but I would never will it to be; no loving parent would.
If you are a praying person, you may ask for peace, you may ask that He take your hurt from you. If you are a meditating person, you may meditate on peace and freeing yourself of the pain of those images.
Experiences like yours are so humbling, they make us feel so helpless and small. They make us wish for something comforting like a parent's reassuring hug as when we were small. For me, that reassurance comes from prayer and meditation, from hugging my own children and from working for peace in my own world.
I'm so sorry you're hurting.
As to clarify. I believe firmly that there is a force or influence or devil or give it whatever name, out there that is an evil. I believe all beings are born with good and 'God' in them and that that evil force can and does corrupt the good out of humans. And its that humans let that evil into their lives that it makes others and themselves suffer. Why does 'God' let it happen, honestly the only reason I have is logical dedcution. If we do not know suffering, how would we know good? If we know no pain, then how do we know real joy. Basically everything has a opposite and good has evil. We are free to choose between them.
Also some suffering is not caused by the choice of choosing between good and evil, it just is. I believe that when we suffer through illness or loss of loved ones its just a way of 'God' refining our souls. We see a lump of coal, God sees the diamond, and getting the coal to a diamond takes many changes, we as the coal don't see it yet
Also some suffering is not caused by the choice of choosing between good and evil, it just is. I believe that when we suffer through illness or loss of loved ones its just a way of 'God' refining our souls. We see a lump of coal, God sees the diamond, and getting the coal to a diamond takes many changes, we as the coal don't see it yet