Bad Bible Scholarship

[Kushana]

I can't make heads or tails about what this thread is about - is it bashing Christian bible scholars or bibliclal archeologists who discredit the bible?

It isn't about either. The two articles at the beginning are scholars asking their peers why we don't talk to the public more (and why the public has so little sense of what our jobs are like.) The religious views of scholars did not enter into it -- it's a topic we usually don't talk about. (I have known many of my peers for decades and I have no idea what they do with their time between the end of office hours on Friday and the start of office hours on Monday: nor do they know the same for me.)

(I only took a quick glance at the 2nd article & gave up)

If you'd like to try again I'd be happy to help untangle anything that doesn't make sense to you.

Unlike Job, who NEVER cursed God, I did.....

He does do something that only Abraham (and perhaps Moses) did before him: call God down for an argument. (And neither Abraham nor Moses 'call out' God: God seems to be present rather than expressly summoned. )

-Kushana
P.S. A friend of mine is participating in Daf Yomi, an an effort to read and study one page of a certain body of Rabbinic literature each day -- a project of some seven years' undertaking. A page looks like this: http://www.dafyomi.org/ Further information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daf_Yomi Without it I do not know how one could have a thorough knowledge of the Talmud without being a deeply dedicated rabbi, specialist, or scholar.

[Kushana]

& not some dead Bible College

(:D I have suspected occasional students of being dead, especially in early classes, but the blight has never spread further than that.)

-Kushana

[Tolkien Forever]

"That's a pretty strong statement, to say that "it was being taken wrongly" Voronwë

As I said before, I hate apologetics...

But I'll explain:

The context was this:

The quote was that the person was saying they had a problem with God calling out Job & causing the havoc in his life that ensued.

This is often seen as the problem in The Book of Job, or that Job is a pawn in a cosmic chess game between God & Satan. Believe me, I understand, having lived in Job's shoe's for 14 years (at least physically), literally from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet just as Job did. During that time, I felt like God was out to destroy me & couldn't understand why - "He must hate me"......
Satan can really manipulate our emotions if we let him.

But, the true story of that Book isn't a cosmic sadist who will make us hurt & say "Tough S**t", It's a loving God who brings us through everything & makes us stronger & works everything for good if we only hold onto Him in faith - actually, even if we don't, as long as we don't walk away from Him completely. In the end, we come out closer to Him & more like His Son.

That's the story of Job.

I know this isn't popular to say in this age of 'tolerance', but I don't care, because I have to answer to The King - any other interpretation that says God is not good dishonors The Living God because God is Love.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

"That's a pretty strong statement, to say that "it was being taken wrongly" Voronwë

As I said before, I hate apologetics...

I'm not sure what you mean by "apologetics" but what is going on here is called "discussion". And one of the hallmarks of respectful discussion is to pay attention to what others are saying, and respond to what they actually say. I'm afraid you have not done this.

But I'll explain:

The context was this:

The quote was that the person was saying they had a problem with God calling out Job & causing the havoc in his life that ensued.

No, it was nothing of the sort. Here is what Kushana actually said:

My latest irritable jag is wishing folk would read the Book of Job more often: where God is an ambitious character, Satan is an ambiguous character, the justice and order of the universe is questioned, God is challenged, God is cursed. Yet is is also one of strongest visions of divine power and majesty in the Bible.

After reading it, could a person of faith imagine that anything we silly humans say could in the least touch God?

How you can interpret that in the way you stated is beyond me.

This is often seen as the problem in The Book of Job, or that Job is a pawn in a cosmic chess game between God & Satan.

How can Job be a pawn in cosmic chess game between God and Satan, when Satan has no real power? Everything that is done to Job is done with God's permission.

Believe me, I understand, having lived in Job's shoe's for 14 years (at least physically), literally from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet just as Job did. During that time, I felt like God was out to destroy me & couldn't understand why - "He must hate me"......
Satan can really manipulate our emotions if we let him.

I respect that your experiences have given you insights, and have strengthened your faith in the long run. But those experiences don't give you the right to misrepresent what others are saying or to stake a claim to the "one true interpretation" of what as nerdanel said is known as the "most difficult" book of the Bible, and one which really is a wholly Jewish work.

But, the true story of that Book isn't a cosmic sadist who will make us hurt & say "Tough S**t", It's a loving God who brings us through everything & makes us stronger & works everything for good if we only hold onto Him in faith - actually, even if we don't, as long as we don't walk away from Him completely. In the end, we come out closer to Him & more like His Son.

No one here is saying that the Book is about a cosmic sadist who makes us hurt and says "tough shit". Please do not put words in my mouth! But the Book is more complex than you are saying. The whole point of God's speech out of the whirlwind is that no mortal was present at the creation, and no mortal can comprehend the fullness of God's creation. There are things that happen in the world that do not make sense from any logical point of view. If you apply only logic, than the only possible interpretation of the events in Job is that God is a cosmic sadist, etc. The beauty of Job is that his faith is so strong that he continues to believe in God, even though he KNOWS that he has not sinned, that he has not done anything to deserve the suffering that he has endured. God agrees with him, and rebukes his "comforters" (who claim that Job must have done something terrible to deserve such a punishment). Most importantly, God confirms that the missing piece is with Him, not with Job. That is not to say that God is bad or evil or a cosmic sadist or anything like that. Rather it is say that Gods ways are beyond our understanding; His plan is to big for us to comprehend. Any effort to logically understand God's ways will lead to disaster; only faith can prevail. That is the message of the Book of Job, at least as I see it.

That's the story of Job.

I know this isn't popular to say in this age of 'tolerance', but I don't care, because I have to answer to The King - any other interpretation that says God is not good dishonors The Living God because God is Love.

You are treading a very thin line here, Tolkien Forever. As Prim already succinctly stated, demanding that others accept your interpretation is not acceptable. I respect your views, and I expect that you will respect mine, even if you don't agree with them.

I really would like to hear your answer to the question that I asked before: what of Job's original ten children who were killed? How do they fit in your interpretation of the Book?

[Crucifer]

[rant]I'm saying this as a practicing Christian.

I'm having a lot of trouble trying not to reply with an angry post, Tolkien Forever. Your way is not the only way. Christianity teaches tolerance and acceptance of other peoples beliefs, remember that. Don't try to pull things like "Christ destroying the temple" on me here, because I can and will argue this to the grave. The whole point of the death, resurrection and ascension, (whether or not they happened) is that Christ, a man, gave his life so that everyone, not just the people who agreed with him, could be saved. Remember that. [/rant]

[Kushana]

"Christ destroying the temple"

That would be the Romans:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_dept ... entury.jpg

http://www.jewishhistory.com/images/jud ... _close.jpg

-Kushana

[Crucifer]

No, I mean the message of Christ saying he'd destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days... SO many people take that to mean the physical temple in Jerusalem, and that anyone who still subscribed to that temple would also be damned for all eternity... It was a metaphor for the spiritual temple, IMHO. That is also the generally accepted interpretation for non-extreme churches, I think...

There's also when he went to the temple and got in a rage and knocked over stalls and so on, but that was because of gambling, not the fact that they didn't worship him. It says it right there, in one (or perhaps two) of the gospels. Whether you believe in it or not, the point of Christianity is to accept and tolerate others.

But that's irrelevant to the original subject of the thread...

[Primula Baggins]

I have been told that it was a metaphor for his physical body, a reference to his death and resurrection.

[Crucifer]

That's another one I've heard. Personally, I prefer the spiritual as opposed to physical temple, but taking the body as a temple is good too.

[solicitr]

At the very least, we Christians should remember that in the Hebrew classification, Job belongs with the "Writings" like Proverbs and Song of Solomon, and therefore has always been in Judaic tradition considered a fable or 'divine drama,' not an historical episode.

[Crucifer]

Excellent point, solictr.