Religious Fakery?

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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

I kind of have the same feeling about the Jesus-in-the-toast thing as I do about the Jesus dolls and all the rest of that. If it works for them, who am I to question?

My only worry is people putting such faith in other people... like this Padre Pio character. If his stigmata have been tied in people's minds to their faith in God, and then his stigmata prove to be fakeries, sometimes people's overall faith is shaken.

Which isn't really fair to God, is it? He's been pretty faithful. It's just people who you can't always count on.




Edit: Frelga :rofl:
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Post by Lurker »

Thanks Frelga. :oops:

:rofl:

One of the miracles woke me up at 4:00 am in the morning and wouldn't go back to sleep, so I tried to stay awake by answering this thread. I even proofread it and I missed that one. I haven't been sleeping well this week, I need a miracle. :help:
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Be careful what you wish for, Lurker! :D
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Teremia
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Post by Teremia »

I believe I've experienced the same sort of miracle you're talking about, Lurker, and they can be very exhausting!! Especially at 4 in the morning.

Even now (when they're 9), they can wear me right out on occasion. Like, for instance, today.

:help:
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Post by themary »

I do believe God created the universe but not necessarily as it says in the book of Genesis. The Bible is full of imagery and metaphors which is why there are so many variations on religion.

As a good Catholic girl I went to CCD every week and did learn about Padre Pio and while it seemed far fetched I didn't really think twice about the story being made up because I wasn't thrilled to be at school yet again after I had just spent 7 hours at another school.

I believe there are miracles but not in the form of crying trees and pieces of toast. God usually isn't literal with his messages as one can tell from reading the Bible. I don't think He left physical clues because He doesn't have to.
This is a side story of personal nature feel free to skip :D.
I have never been thrilled with the idea of organized religion but recently experienced a new church that halplm's younger brother W wanted to try out, and while it was large and intimidating I felt like I had been spoken to by God. I knew this is where I was supposed to be which was odd because church always bored me but now it's something I look forward to each week. I prayed and this was the answer to my prayer. It wasn't left on a piece of paper or on my person as a physical wound and I certainly wouldn't call it a miracle.


I think some people are so lost that they miss the point entirely and they need these physical objects to confirm their beliefs. To me this defeats the point of faith.
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anthriel
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Post by anthriel »

I am so glad, Mary. :D :D There's nothing quite like that giant snapping sound when you realize you *fit* in a church. It's happened to me, too, in a church much like you describe. Just gave me goosebumps, reading that. I'm so glad for you!!! :D :D :D
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Maria
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Post by Maria »

I think religious artifacts have exactly as much power as people give them. If one believes powerfully enough that something can heal them or relieve their pain, then it will- for a time at least. The placebo effect is quite real and a force to be reckoned with... or else why would scientific studies work so hard to eliminate it with double blind testing?
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Relics, during the Middle Ages, were a business. There was a huge incentive for fraud, and I think there are plenty of frauds available. Like the chains in the church "Peter in Chains" in Rome - I kinda doubt they're actually the chains used on St. Peter 2000 years ago! But the church is worth visiting for its beautiful Bernini (that is who I mean, isn't it?) statue of St. Teresa in Ecstasy. :)

And I often get suspicious when the relics are put in a box that no one is allowed to open. It's like...oh really? Are they even still in there? (Like the remains of St. Agnes, that are supposed to be very well preserved.) Sometimes the fraud was intentional, and other times it was more pious wishful thinking - someone went to the Holy Land looking for something...and they found it! Or they found something...

But then, as fun as it is to visit people's tombs and pray there, I'm not really going to get upset if I can't see the body, or if the body isn't actually the original or as complete as claimed. That's okay with me.

Padre Pio is the real deal. He kept the gloves on most of the time; he hardly 'flaunted' his stigmata. And that was only one detail of many associated with him. The man was clearly eccentric, and strange, and would have been awful to live with - but I think there can be little doubt that he was genuinely holy. Why did he make a request of the chemist? Well, maybe he had a reason to reach out to that man, by writing him a personal letter. Who knows? I certainly don't. Though the fact that the man kept the simple note and presented it to the commision collecting Padre Pio's writings like 50 years later speaks volumes. I really doubt the hysterical claims being made. Too much of the tabloid to them, and too little to base it on. I've read a biography of Padre Pio - lots of people knew him, and there's tons of information available.


Like anything, there can be authentic stuff, and the existence of charlatans doesn't disprove that. There are certainly many charlatans, and many incredulous people out there. It is an easy trap to fall into - instant attention! And you feel special. Seeing God's face in a piece of toast is less miraculous than seeing God's face in the driver who cuts you off, though. If you can pull off the latter - you are spiritually well beyond me :).
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Re: Religious Fakery?

Post by Kushana »

Alatar wrote:... like the Shroud of Túrin, which have fallen under the shadow of doubt.
I'd be a bit surprised if the decades of doubts (from various perspectives) about the Shroud of Túrin were a surprise to any historian of early Christianity -- the chain of custody is sketchy until the medieval era and the shroud does not fit with the description in the Gospel of John (which ties into a larger argument about what to do with the details in John that show up in no other gospel.)

-Kushana
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

I can recommend this very good movie on the life of Padre Pio. It is titled, shockingly, Padre Pio ;). I saw it in Italian with subtitles, and I must say...it's one of the best treatments of a 'life of a saint' I've seen. It helps based on who he is. But it is generally very difficult to tell a story about someone's interior life in that medium. It just...doesn't translate well. It is also always difficult to represent the supernatural. If someone is hearing voices, do you let the audience hear them too?

This Italian movie handled both very well. The first time we see him having a vision as a child, we see nothing. So, we can hear and guess what is going on, but can't see it. Then, at the very end, we see what he was seeing. So, the movie does accept the supernatural as real as a matter of course. But it does not rely on this. It is really a character study of what he did and who he became, apart from this. It captures his personality very well, relying on many accounts for his dialogue. He was a quite simple person...but one who used his gifts very well. He was not always kind - he had a tendency to make people flee from him in tears, when he did rebuke them ;). But at the same time...he was sought out by so many.

As for how the stigmata is handled...it is, of course, real in the movie. But the first time it happens, he basically panics and runs to someone and asks, 'how do I make this go away?' When it comes back later, you can tell that he has come to understand what it is and what he's supposed to do with it a little better. Those three scenes are the only times we see it. Mostly, the movie is not about that, though they do deal with doctors examining him and church authorities discussing what to do with him.

What I liked about the movie was that it showed that while he had an extrordinarily rich spiritual experience of life...that is not what made him a saint. Dealing with angels and demons didn't make him holy. Neither did 'knowing' things about people or being able to perform miracles. It was what he did with it, and how he grew. Padre Pio loved his mother. His nickname was "Frenchie" (for Francesco) He joined the Capuchins because they had beards. He lived in a poor, small town. He got out of military service during WWI based on poor health. His life work was building a hospital. He spent much of his day in the confessional. He was a very simple man. He was certainly not a theologian! But he was able to keep his humility and his love of people, so that everything he did was in service to others. Not what you'd expect from someone who was best known for bilocating and telling people their own pasts. To him, the supernatural was natural, and a matter of course, so he didn't let himself get too excited about it.

Anyway - the man was a saint, similar to John Vianney. He had no need to fake stigmata, and I seriously doubt he did. In an interview in 1945, he said, "Hypocrisy is the greatest evil of our time. It exists in all levels of our society, in high places and in low places."

In Italy. In 1945. So I think he took that rather seriously! Most people were very impressed with his sincerity.
wikipedia wrote:In accusations which are not new, historian Sergio Luzzatto and others, both religious and non-religious, have accused Padre Pio of faking his stigmata. Luzzatto's theory, namely that Padre Pio used carbolic acid to self-inflict the wounds, is based on a document found in the Vatican's archive — the testimony of a pharmacist at the San Giovanni Rotondo, Maria De Vito, from whom he ordered 4 grammes of the acid. According to De Vito, Padre Pio asked her to keep the order secret, saying it was to sterilise needles. The document was examined but dismissed by the Catholic Church during Padre Pio's beatification process.

The Church likely dismissed the claims based on evidence that the acid was in fact used for sterilization: "The boys had needed injections to fight the Spanish Flu which was raging at that time. Due to a shortage of doctors, Padres Paolino and Pio administered the shots, using carbolic acid as a sterilizing agent.”
The accusation of using carbolic acid was raised much earlier (in 1960) by Mgr. Maccari, an investigator from the Vatican who accused Padre Pio of many, many things. In the end, the Vatican decided Maccari was wrong ;).
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Post by Lidless »

Primula Baggins wrote:Well, Faramond, obviously as a Christian I believe that miraculous events are possible. I don't expect to see them myself, nor do I feel comfortable with the idea of "expecting" miracles.

If somebody "miraculously" escapes an accident or an illness, I'm very uncomfortable with attributing that to God's direct action because (a) I think God acts through people, by inspiring them to act rightly, and (b) to say "this person's survival is a sign that God loves him" is to say that all the people who haven't survived somehow didn't deserve quite as much of God's love. Which is a repellent thought.

In terms of "proof of existence," I meant it as something of a thought experiment, supposing a proof so compelling that no rational person could deny it. Someone willing to be irrational (as I sometimes am) could reject such a proof, certainly.

But anyone who wants to be rational and exercise free will about affirming or denying God's existence would be stuck if confronted with proof that could not be refuted or denied.
Prim, that was one of the most mature posts I've ever read.
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Thank you, Lidless.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by kams »

From Alatar's original news source
Pietro Siffi, president of the Catholic Anti-defamation League. The "presumed proofs are absolutely false," he said. "According to Catholic doctrine, canonisation involves the infallibility of the pope."
From Faramond research
According to The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Catholicism: " Since the 1870 solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I, this power has been used only once: in 1950 when Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics.

Actually, twice, Pius IX and the Immaculate Conception of Mary. :)

The man quoted in the original article must be wrong. Yeah, I thought it sounded fishy :scratch: ... although there HAS been formal discussion on the matter. See here for a summary, about halfway down the page.



Other thoughts -- in these sorts of discussions, it is important to separate the word "belief" from the word "think."
To say, "I believe in God and I believe in evolution" is confusing, because the same word is being used to express "acceptance without proof" and "hold an opinion" in the same sentence.




-- I can't say myself if Padre Pio was a charlatan or not. I've not studied it and it doesn't impact my day-to-day (Catholic) faith. But I wouldn't compare Padre Pio and a piece of toast. They are not in the same league. I would compare Padre Pio and the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Does the earthly evidence increase one's faith? Change one's heart?




-- As for Alatar's wondering about people's belief in earthy evidence of God, I point out the Incarnation. =:)
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Post by Tolkien Forever »

'Faith is the evidence of things not seen'

As the Apostle Paul said.......

Those who believe don't need proof & those who doubt will NEVER be convinced.

'Nuff said.
'I am my beloved's and He is mine; And the banner over me is Love'
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Post by Tolkien Forever »

Oh, BTW:

If it's 'proof' you want, log onto starofbethlehem.net.....

I just finished watching an awesome video about how God orchestrated the stars & heavely bodies at the birth & death of Jesus.
It's backed up by software that can be proven by mathmatical equations used since the 1600's to plot the locations of the stars & planets.....

Amazing!

I must admit I'm not much on 'apologetics' as I said in my previous
post - long discussions just blow alot of smoke & prove nothing but how much pride we have in our own opinions.

But, if you check out what this guy has to say with an open mind and/or get his DVD (it's only $14.74 on EBAY), you'll be very surprised. It's also only 66 minutes long......
'I am my beloved's and He is mine; And the banner over me is Love'
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Oops...

Post by Tolkien Forever »

That might bethlehemstar.net

One or the other
'I am my beloved's and He is mine; And the banner over me is Love'
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