Physical violence against children

[axordil]

But it's a very interesting thing in itself that this topic is taboo for you.

All right, I've tried to be nice and circumspect, but it's obviously not working. I deeply resent being judged on parenting skills by non-parents. And I'm afraid that's what your approach here feels like. You may not intend it to, but that's how it comes off. Comments like the above only reinforce that impression. I don't find the topic taboo, but I do find this approach offensive.

[Frelga]

Once again, Ax, DON'T READ IT. Seriously, man, you are one of the most reasonable people on boards usually. The topic obviously upsets you, so why do you keep coming here?

Most people who posted here ARE parents.

[Jnyusa]

I deeply resent being judged on parenting skills by non-parents.

Ax, there's plenty of judgmental advice out there, but I rather guess that Hobby is more interested in discussing the issue on its merits.

The opinion that Hobby reflects is the prevailing opinion of child-rearing specialists; it's the view of discipline that is currently in vogue, and it used to really set me off when I would read articles in parenting magazines, usually while sitting in the pediatrician's office, that would lecture me on the importance of parents' disciplining themselves first of all. "Ten things to do instead of spanking."

Well ... after you've spoken quietly and told them to stop, given them 'time out,' linked rewards to good behavior, explained the consequences of their action, put them in their own room while you cool down ... etc., etc., ... and the kid is still screaming bloody murder for pie while your dinner is burning on the stove, THEN what do you do?

Thing is, when you're in a house with a kid, and you're the one responsible, you realize pretty quickly that words like 'choice' and 'reason' do not apply to children before a certain age. They have only a rudimentary sense of self and other and mostly they are acting on instinct and emotion and sometimes they simply are not in control of themselves and can't respond to anything at all, positive or negative, except their own internal stimulus. They have tantrums. And they go through stages where tantrums rule more than once in their little lives ... the last being as teenagers, and some of us continue that even into adulthood, don't we.

BUT ... and it's a big but ... what the eitsis gebbers are telling us now is so superior to what they told our parents and grandparents ... I definitely think we're on a better track now than they were fifty to eighty years ago.

Personally, I think it's a very bad idea to strike a child with an object. My parents did it to me, and it's one of two things I could not have done to my own kids even if they'd driven me to psychotic rage ... and there were a few times when I was driven beyond my own ability to think reasonably, believe me ... The other thing I could not have done to my kids was constant criticism, or to discipline them by demeaning them. I recall very few instances of praise from my own parents, very much criticism. To this day I am convinced emotionally that they disliked me and regretted that I was the person the adoption agency sent home with them; but in more rational moments I realize that it was themselves they disliked, and they operated mostly out of insecurity and fear of public failure.

I recall two occassions when I spanked my oldest daughter. In the first case the messages was: You must stop this immediately and not do it again. It is not something you must do better in the future, it is something you must never do at all. And the spanking was the last resort, after every other approach had been ignored and a genuinely life-threatening behavior continued with obtuseness. In the second case, I simply lost my temper, after about an hour of tantrum. I don't regret the first spanking, but I do regret the second. Interestingly enough, my daughter herself has forgotten the first but remembers the second.

The other part of this equation is that not all parents are equipped to be adults themselves. We're supposed to choose our course of action based on a desire to nurture, teach, and discipline .... but not all of us chose to be parents, much less chose to do it as well as we can. A lot of the exhortations that we hear from specialists in the world at large are not aimed at us, even though we are the ones who take it to heart because we are the ones who are listening. In some cases, you know, the adults themselves are the ones who have to hear instructions put in very childlike terms: Spanking Bad. Count to ten, come let's count to ten together. And getting them to listen makes the difference between a beaten child and a dead child.

Unfortunately child abuse remains so prevalent in our society ... and I think that the reasons for that are complicated and deeply rooted and the cure, if ever there is one, will have to look far beyond individual choice ... I don't mind having fingers shaken at me metaphorically if it means that some other parent far more in need of it can be made to heed.

Jn

[Cerin]

Ax, I think I understand what you're saying, about how this discussion makes you feel judged by others. However, I don't think people -- whether parents themselves or not -- are judging you personally, and I don't believe they necessarily would be even if they were acquainted with your parenting techniques. I don't think offering an opinion on this type of thing carries the implication that the person offering the opinion is judging everyone offering a different opinion as deficient in some way.

In saying this, I don't mean to try and tell you how you ought to feel about the discussion or to convince you that it has merit or that you should feel obliged to participate.

As far as someone voicing an opinion who hasn't been a parent, I think it's done with the realization that they are conjecturing. As with any life situation, you can't know just how you will react until you are in the situation. But I don't think that precludes or should preclude non-parents from thinking and talking about the possibilities and concepts involved.

eta: cross-posted with Jn

[Maria]

I spanked my kids as needed, and they are turning out OK. They seem to like me, even after moving out.

Pain association is the quickest way to train man or beast. It is kinder to do the correction with a quick couple of swats rather than a drawn out "time out" or lengthy counselling session. For complex isssues, I would do the long talk, but for simple things that didn't need psychoanalysis, a couple of swats gets the message across that this is unacceptable behaviour. After they got older, I'd give them choices of punishments for infractions: "X hours of housework" or a certain number of pushups, or a spanking. Often, the spanking was chosen as it would be over soonist. Pushups were second choice, depending on the number involved.

I mostly used my hand, but also used switches and my shoe*. I was not going to let my kids grow up to be monsters. My inlaws use the "never hit" model, and their kids are spoiled brats, and I don't like to be around them.

I didn't verbally abuse my children, and mostly didn't hit when mad. They have turned out well, and no one can convince me that what I did was wrong. Children can be little beasts, and it takes a lot of effort to civilize them.


*edit: My shoes are a rubber soled moccasins, no hard spots.

[Padme]

When my kids were younger, much younger, when they could not reason well, they were spanked. Not hard with an open hand.

As they grew older I simply instilled consequences to their actions. Break curfew = lower grounding and a lower curfew time. Disrespecting others (i.e. fighting with sister ect) = losing a beloved gameboy or CD. And I don't give them back for a good long time. If the offense is really bad they are grounded and loose a favorite item (said items goes away permanently). It was really hard on me the first time I tossed my son's gameboy because he was doing something really wrong.

Since they are both 17 now and both taller than me, the discipline has changed a great deal from when they were 3 or 5. Of course they are both so busy with jobs, school and activities that they are too tired to get into trouble. However, my son can and would possibly be in trouble if I did not watch him like a hawk. I make sure I know what they are doing. And they are both too honest to get away with much, or I can tell when they are lying too easily. They won't ever be good poker players, that’s for sure.

Speaking of spanking my friend Robert Zimmerman said he was spanked on Sunday just because his dad knew he had done something wrong and hadn't been caught. So Sunday was spanking day, just because.

[Lily Rose]

My daughter does nothing but laugh if I try to spank her. It is completely pointless because I hurt myself and thats about it. There are other, much more effective methods of dealing with her. One has been push-ups for serious transgressions. She and her younger brother are in the situation, since mom and dad are divorced, that if they don't like how mom disciplines them that they can tell dad. As I mentioned earlier, Child protective services has way too much power in the United States. I really don't need them nosing into my business or trying to tell me how to raise my children.

Another thing that I would like to bring up is dealing with mentally challenged children, especially autistics. My youngest sister is a high-functioning autistic. I am not sure that spanking an autistic child is ever the right thing to do, but I'm at a loss for dealing with her violent, unpredictable behavior. I understand that I am not her mother, however she is often left in my care. I have had to try to keep her away from my children as much as possible, because she is often violent towards them and seems to have no capacity for remorse. I am afraid that if she were my child, I would often lose patience with her and give her a good smack on the behind. Though she does have parts of her brain that are misfiring, I believe that she would be perfectly capable of controlling herself if she wanted to and if her behavior was not considered acceptable by my parents.

I could be completely out in left field, here. Speaking of disciplining a mentally challenged child is always touchy business.

I think that I have said too much, so I think that I will stop babbling, now.

[Maria]

The last time I spanked one of my kids was about 2 years ago, when my youngest was 15. I'd told her a hundred times not to climb on the back of the couch, that it would damage it eventually. I came into the living room, and there she was flopped over the back of the couch with her butt in the air. Again. She forgot. Again.

So, I delivered a stinging slap to said bottom, and she jumped up fighting mad. I hadn't spanked her in a couple of years at that point, other methods had always been adequate for other infractions. I faced her down that time, but her reaction showed me that she no longer accepted that form of correction, no matter how effective. She hasn't lain on the back of the couch again, but I haven't tried to discipline her that way again, either.

Not that I'm scared to, being a brown belt in judo has it's advantages, but it just didn't feel appropriate anymore. She was too grown up, with too much will of her own.

[truehobbit]

Thanks for the comments, all!

Alater, I found it interesting that the humiliation aspect didn't seem to be felt when you got to choose being hit at school.

And I was very surprised to hear that corporeal punishment was still legal in schools in Ireland when you were a kid.
It had always seemed normal to me that in my school-time there was not even a thought of corporeal punishment, and I had taken it for granted it was illegal (and kind of expected the same for the rest of the Western world).
So I looked at wikipedia to find the exact dates: it says that it was made illegal here for all schools in 1973, after having gone out of habit, in schools of continuing education first, since the mid sixties. (So at least I got that right.)

Bavaria (famously conservative), however, only agreed to this law in 1980. While the GDR outlawed physical punishment at schools in 1949. (Not that they were otherwise particularly squeamish about punishment.)Sweden outlawed physical punishment of children in general in 1979.
I think this may be taken as evidence that rejection of physical punishment of children is somewhat of a left-wing thing.

And I have to apologise for a really embarrassing mistake : it had completely escaped me that the law here was indeed changed seven years ago, granting children the right to a 'violence-free education' (i.e. including emotional violence like humiliation) - I suppose that the pro and con arguments I remember hearing are either longer ago than I thought, or had to do with how to put the law in practice.

The wikipedia article had another very interesting paragraph: while I do wonder whether the German legal approach isn't a bit exaggerated, Canada has taken a very differentiated approach. In 2004 a law ruled that physical punishment is legal only for the ages between 2 and 12, and only as long as it is 'reasonable', with 'reasonable' meaning 'not made in anger, only for an important reason, not with any instrument but only the hand, and in no case on the child's head'. I think it's really good that they took such a differentiating approach (although I don't think a light slap on the head is so much more harmful than anywhere else). What I like a lot is the age-limit at which physical punishment may start (I find hitting babies incomprehensible - surely, babies are too young to even make pain-associations and 'do' anything for other than instinctive purposes). So, I think this is a pretty wise regulation.

Also, Alatar, your example of a physical punishment you found justified corresponds with Jny's - where the child is engaging in potentially dangerous behaviour.

Ax, I have long thought about replying to you in detail, but Frelga, Jny and Cerin have already made my points better than I could.


Jny, I think you make a very interesting point by bringing emotional violence in - I have often wondered whether demeaning a child can be potentially more damaging in the long run than physical violence. It seems from what you're saying that it can.

And the spanking was the last resort, after every other approach had been ignored and a genuinely life-threatening behavior continued with obtuseness. In the second case, I simply lost my temper, after about an hour of tantrum. I don't regret the first spanking, but I do regret the second. Interestingly enough, my daughter herself has forgotten the first but remembers the second.

I think that's very interesting indeed. I wonder if that's because she found the second one harder to deal with?

Which raises the question of whether 'cool' punishments are really easier to handle for the recipient. The Canadian law seems to assume it, and under the aspect of fairness and justness, losing control would seem to be quite inacceptable. On the other hand, I've always thought that losing control is something that can happen (if it doesn't happen too often) and hence should be understandable even for the person who is hit, while a cool decision to administer physical punishment is harder to understand for me (as I'd think that once you've had time to think about it, you'd not want to hit anymore).

Unfortunately child abuse remains so prevalent in our society ... and I think that the reasons for that are complicated and deeply rooted and the cure, if ever there is one, will have to look far beyond individual choice ...

I quite agree. What are you thinking of when you speak of looking 'beyond individual choice'?

Speaking of spanking my friend Robert Zimmerman said he was spanked on Sunday just because his dad knew he had done something wrong and hadn't been caught. So Sunday was spanking day, just because.

Yikes.
How does Robert view this experience in hindsight?

Lily, you've certainly not said too much

I can imagine what an additional problem it must be in a divorce when as a result of trouble the kids complain to the other parent. It's threatening to hamper the decisions of each of the parents.

I don't know anything about keeping handicapped children in line, but I think that's a fascinating aspect. If your sister is high-functioning, I would imagine her violence could be checked. (But, again, I know nothing about autistics.) I should think that it's the responsibility of the parent of an autistic child to learn how to guide their behaviour. Surely, this is a field where it's the experts' job to give the parents ideas, even if they don't have autistic children themselves.
I hope that maybe someone who knows about handicapped kids has some info.

In general, though, I think the interesting aspect here is that if a person has the reasoning powers of a four-year-old, and we think it ok to slap a four-year-old to make it clear what we're expecting, because you couldn't explain it to them - would we also feel right to slap a much older, handicapped person for the same reason?


Sorry I couldn't address each post - I've probably talked more than fits in a single post already.

[Jnyusa]

Ax,

discussion in this thread has died off for the moment, but please allow me to apologize to you for treating your concern about the topic in such an offhand fashion.

We did in fact have our eye on the thread as soon as you mentioned your discomfort with the topic but we should have let you know that we would do that instead of implying that it wasn't an issue. It is an issue for us if even one poster finds a subject hot to handle, and though we wouldn't shut down a topic that did not violate our by-laws as long as people were posting reasonably, we would definitely watch out for trampled toes, as we have done with a lot of topics here.

Again, I'm sorry for taking so long to say that. I should have said it right up front when you first raised your concerns.

Jn

[vison]

It's an issue for me, too. This is a topic that I find impossible to discuss.

*sighs*

So I am reading and not saying anything.

[MithLuin]

I thought Hobby might like some company from another non-parent Not that I don't deal with kids; I'm a teacher, I deal with kids every day. But it's different. Very different. I know this. The kids know this. Their parents know it. I can give a kid a one-hour detention for running in the lunch room. They will be asked to clean boards and desks after school. That works for me; I don't see the need for physical punishments in our school. But I teach well-behaved teenage girls, who have 'drama' as their biggest problem. Other schools have different situations, and I will not say that whacks with a ruler is never helpful - I will only say that it is not needed where I am, and that it can be abused in some cases.

The other part of this equation is that not all parents are equipped to be adults themselves. We're supposed to choose our course of action based on a desire to nurture, teach, and discipline .... but not all of us chose to be parents, much less chose to do it as well as we can.

I will go beyond that. Sure, some parents end up with kids that they were not prepared for, and have no intention of changing their lifestyle to get prepared. My sister is a nurse, and when you send home a premie with oxygen, and the smokers in the house turn off the baby's oxygen, it is very sad....and not at all surprising that the baby ends up back in the hospital . When you ask a pregnant woman who her doctor is, and she tells you she doesn't have one.... It may not have helped that the parents were teens, but my cousin is a teen dad, and I don't think he'd be that irresponsible with his son.

But even those people who really want to be good parents (and I would include most parents in this category - certainly everyone here) sometimes just aren't able to deal with some situations. I don't fault the parents for that. My Mom had three children aged three and under...and got post-partum on the third child (her own Mom had died recently, so that didn't help matters). You know - that is really difficult! I was the three-and-a-half year old, and my sister was just 2. We were not little angels. We got into all sorts of things, drove our mother to distraction, and certainly didn't help with the baby. She had to call the poison control center about once a month. Also once a month, she went ballistic. We the kids didn't understand what hormones were, but my Dad figured it out.

I do not think my Mom was a bad mom, or that she didn't want the best for her kids. She did, and she tried her hardest. But though I will admit that maybe she didn't handle some situations in the best way possible, I don't see any reason to hold her accountable for that. She did the best she could, and her kids turned out fine. Whatever problems we have (ie, internet addiction in my case), were not do to that!

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

It's one thing to be concerned about some of the commentary being taken as a judgment on one's parenting skills.

It's quite another to say that non-parents can have not an opinion on the matter.

I am not a parent, but I was on the receiving end of spankings as a child, some deserved, perhaps, some not.

The idea that I could not have opinions on the matter is as offensive to me as the discussion itself may be to others.

The idea that only parents can have opinions on the subject, and that children (or former children) who were on the receiving end cannot, is tantamount to stating that children can be viewed as objects, since their opinions do not matter.

It is one thing to disagree whether there may be reasonable circumstances under which corporeal punishment is acceptable; it is another to say that those receiving the punishment have no say in the matter forever and for all time unless they become parents themselves.

I can only imagine that those who are asserting such a position, and those who have failed to object to such a position, or have attempted to be overly accommodative to such a position, have failed to think through the implications of their statements.

Even a relatively benign statement, such as the assertion that most of those in the discussion are parents themselves, is just a way of avoiding this crucial point that this is a matter that everyone, including non-parents, has a legitimate right to discuss.

BrianIs AtYou

[truehobbit]

The idea that I could not have opinions on the matter is as offensive to me as the discussion itself may be to others.

Brian, I feel exactly that way, too!

Mith, right back at you, thanks.

It seems, your mother was just overburdened with 3 small children, plus suffering from depression. (How could you possibly have helped with the baby at three and a half yourself? ) But it's of course just the kind of case where one would ask what did it mean for the kids. And I can attest to the fact that her kids turned out fine.
Could you please say some more about what you mean by 'your father figured it out'? Did he try to explain to you what was happening with your mother?

[MithLuin]

Only much later. I meant that, as kids, our response was "Mommy's yelling - I must have done something bad - I'll go hide under my bed." Cause we were three (or so). We had no concept of what was happening with her, and to be honest - she didn't realize it either. Once my dad figured out that her outbursts were related to PMS, they were able to work on doing something about it. She got much better, and my brothers never experienced her, er, temper. I didn't learn about any of this until much later, and I'm pretty sure it was she who explained it to me, not my Dad. For all I know, my Dad did say something to us at the time, but I don't remember it .

But I just put the situation forward as what can happen when a parent is overwhelmed. Because that does make a difference - evaluating what should or shouldn't be done from far away sounds extremely judgemental, as if the parent wanted to mess up or didn't care about what would happen. Neither was the case, and I have many wonderful memories from my early childhood. And the things I don't remember have been told to me as stories. While timing might be viewed as a 'mistake' in this case, it wasn't - my mother was already pregnant when her mother died, so she was caught off-guard by all this emotional stuff (Her Mom had poor health all her life, but she was only in her early 60's, and died suddenly of a heartattack). Sometimes life is just like that, and everything hits you at once. Basically, I think my Mom is a saint and one of the best moms in the whole world, and certainly a very dedicated and hard-working person. But that doesn't mean she never did anything she later thought better of.

To clarify, no one expected me to help out, and I didn't. I was, as I said, only 3 1/2 - which was part of the problem! My Mom found it much easier to deal with two toddlers when she had some older children around to help out. But my youngest sister was only 3 1/2 when our brother was born, and I think she helped out...no, wait, she would have been 5 1/2 when the youngest was born, and she must have helped with him. She would have been in kindergarten, so she was the only one of the girls home with my mom during the day (at least, in the morning). Since we were all C-sections, my Mom was on bed rest after each baby was born, or had things she couldn't do for awhile (like stairs, or driving). So, my youngest sister was "Mommy's little helper" and loved it . But I always forget which baby it was with.


As for the purpose of this thread - I think this is an issue that is a case-by-case thing. Some kids (and some families) can use other disciplinary measures w/o corporal punishment, and it works fine. Other families spank their kids while they are young (say, 2-7), and that works fine. And other families beat their kids, and that's a real problem. I don't see any problem with spanking kids (and I don't just mean a light tap), but I certainly wouldn't see anything wrong with a parent deciding not to do that. My only complaint would be if there is abuse involved, or if whatever disciplinary method is being used clearly doesn't work.

[Jnyusa]

Brian,

You are right of course that all of us have been children and are perfectly qualified to comment on the parenting we received if not the parenting we've given.

It's very good that people are willing to talk frankly about what it was like to be a child! It's valuable to parents to hear what it felt like to be on the receiving end of parenting techniques. That's probably the best advice anyone could get or give.

I think the concern that Ax expressed in his first post had a slightly different drift, though, which was that the thread had potential to go in a hurtful direction and the marshals needed to pay attention to that. We were a little bit too anxious to post our own opinions and failed to acknowledge that we would also pay attention with our hats on, so to speak. That is why I apologized to Ax. But the thread is perfectly congenial and it has been enlightening for me to read other peoples' experiences. Those who find the issue one they don't want to talk about themselves can read with some interest, I think, the experiences of others.

For better or worse, I'm beyond the benefits of advice. My kids are grown. I did whatever damage I could do and then released them into the wild with their crippled psyches

Jn

[Maria]

We had no concept of what was happening with her, and to be honest - she didn't realize it either. Once my dad figured out that her outbursts were related to PMS, they were able to work on doing something about it.

My dad took me aside one time and told me that my mom, "just goes crazy every once in a while". None of us knew about PMS, but she was a terror when PMSing. I'll give her this, though: she only threw things at my dad, never at us kids. I didn't follow her example, though, and have never bullied my husband- despite having severe PMS myself. When you know what it is, you can guard against it.

[Holbytla]

I don't think anyone suggested that non-parents couldn't have an opinion.
I think what was suggested was that it is impossible for anyone to advise on particular situations other than their own, and that parents will do as they see fit in their own circumstances and would rather not be advised how to parent their children.

Poorly worded, but that is the gist of what I got.

[nerdanel]

Edited for two reasons:
- Decided not to leave this level of personal/family detail in an unprotected forum
- No longer have any objection to Ax's objection.

There is a huge gap between abusive parents and those who occasionally administer a mild spanking for legitimate behavior, while calm and in control of their actions.

Yet, I have two further issues. Parents are probably larger figures than even God in the minds of their children, and they certainly have more practical impact on their kids' lives than any God does on a day to day basis. When you are a parent, you near-absolutely control the physical reality of your young child (in the sense of where they live, what activities they attend, etc), and you strongly influence the emotional climate of your child as well. This is already an awesome responsibility - and a parent is necessarily taking on an additional, difficult task by charging themselves with the task of doling out physical discipline responsibly. Some parents are capable of this task. Others are not. As narya says, for some, the power rush of having so much power over another human being will be too great. Others are not qualified to wield that power due to preexisting emotional or psychological conditions. Any parent who believes they are better be damn sure. I feel that parents should be willing to run their actions, in the realm of physical discipline, by other adults to help judge how reasonable they were. (Not that a parent needs clearance from every childless "childrearing expert" out there, to be sure - but if you don't feel comfortable telling at least one or two other trusted adults in your life about how you are disciplining your children, perhaps you should consider why.)

My second issue with physical discipline is how it caused me to react. (Insert mandatory disclaimer: Not all kids are the same, others would react differently, blah blah blah.) Some of the time, I got in trouble for "lying" to my mother. But, I was lying to her because I was terrified of what she would do if she found out whatever it was that I was lying about. (And, the subject matter of the lies was usually pretty harmless, and was usually along the lines of having gotten an A- or B+ on a test.) So, the cycle of emotional abuse and physical discipline was probably worsened by my fear of physical discipline...which seems, at best, counterproductive. Far from being a deterrent (from lying, at least), it caused me to lie more in the hopes that I could avert the next cycle of threats, physical lashing out, and emotionally painful insults and taunts.

[Primula Baggins]

Nel, no one I know intimately enough in RL to discuss these things went through anything remotely like what you describe. That's a fairly large circle of people. None of the kids I grew up with and whose houses I spent time in went through anything like that, either. None of the parents I know well use those methods.

These are not all rosy, conventional families by any means, but . . . nothing like that.

This mom wants to give you a hug.