It is currently Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:59 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:02 pm 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
If I was God, I would know it, as God is omniscient.

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:56 am 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
I'm in a pretty conflicted state about the whole matter of God. I don't feel any firm conviction in my heart that he exists, but I'd like to think he does, and if he does, that he is as far beyond us as to be incomprehensible. I don't think of God as some Guy in the Sky, some really powerful human, like the Greek gods or Q of Star Trek, but rather someone completely beyond my ability to wrap my mind around him. (Not a very personal god, I must admit.) If said person became human, he would no longer, by definition, be God.

If I gave up my humanity and became a plant, would I know it? Would I still be me? How could you tell I was still me?

Which leads on to the question that has always bugged me: If there is a heaven, and all who go to it are rendered perfect like God, and I was accidentally let in, would anyone recognize me? My imperfections and deviations from the norm are what define me. Would I still be me in heaven? Can there be more than one version of perfect?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:04 am
Posts: 7283
narya wrote:
If I gave up my humanity and became a plant, would I know it? Would I still be me? How could you tell I was still me?


Great analogy, narya.

Jn

_________________
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:39 pm 
Offline
Pleasantly Twisted
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:35 pm
Posts: 8996
Location: Black Creek Bottoms
Quote:
Can there be more than one version of perfect?


That depends on who gets to define perfect.

_________________

Resentment is no excuse for baldface stupidity.
-- Garrison Keillor

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:39 pm 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
Personally, I think that God made us in his own image, therefore we don't have to be changed to enter heaven. We all enter heaven thenks to Christ, regardless of imperfections. We don't need to be sinless, just know that we have commited sin and repent of it, to be welcomed into heaven. Amen.

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Last edited by Crucifer on Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:00 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39531
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Crucifer,

We post about our beliefs here, but the custom is to do so in a way that invites discussion and does not seem to be trying to close it off. While you believe that what you posted is absolutely true, many people here do not.

You're perfectly free to post a statement of what you believe, but please don't phrase it as if it's what everyone believes or should believe.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:08 pm 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
Gotcha. done it.

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:12 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39531
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
And that's all it took. Thanks. :)

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:21 pm 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
Sometimes I forget myself, and also that people can't see my hand movements. Maybe I should get a webcam... :D

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:04 am
Posts: 7283
Yes, that's the big downside to the internet. No one can hear tone of voice or see body language.

The upside is that it turns all of us into very precise writers. :D

Jn

_________________
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.


Last edited by Jnyusa on Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:33 pm 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
I guess I don't see it the same way that you do, Crucifer. For example, have you seen or read "The Devil Wears Prada"? In it, the main character's boss, Miranda, is an absolute witch, making everyone's lives miserable with her unreasonable demands, criticisms, truth twisting, etc. She's a fictional character, but not that far off from some people I've met. I assume the nice person underneath all of the imperfections is the part made in the image of God, but if all of the imperfections are stripped away, as well as the body (after death), how would I know that this person is Miranda? What would be left that would make her Miranda, and not somebody else? If we are all made in the image of a single, perfect God, then it is our imperfections that distinguish us as separate people.

Even those who are quite close to being true to the image of God - St. Francis of Assisi, Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta, or Dorothy Day, for example - were distinguished by their quirks or what we would consider to be their imperfections. They were holy in some ways, and rather irritating in other ways. These quirks made them very different people from one another. Even Jesus riled people up, driving the money changers out of the Temple and sending the rich man away frustrated.

So I guess in answer to V's question, I'd need to know what part of godliness God would have to abandon in order to become human and not know he was God. The only example I have that comes close is Jesus, but he knew about his connection to God. Jesus was "emptied of his divinity" but I'm not really sure what that means. He still had the "nature" of godliness: Love, Truth, Right, and Good. He still had fore-knowledge. He could still do super-natural things (miracles).

My short answer would be - if I didn't know I was God, I would not be God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:38 pm 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
Quote:
if I didn't know I was God, I would not be God.
That was my first answer. I agree.

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:21 am 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
Jnyusa wrote:
narya wrote:
If I gave up my humanity and became a plant, would I know it? Would I still be me? How could you tell I was still me?


Great analogy, narya.

Jn


Of course, the analogy breaks down if you recall what happens to some of the characters in the second book of Card's Ender Series or recall Tolkien's trees awakened by Elves.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:39 am 
Offline
Not Studying At All
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:17 pm
Posts: 1607
In Speaker for the Dead, a whole planet exists by the flora becoming fauna and vice versa. Thanks for reminding me, Narya. Of course, that's fiction...

_________________
Why is the duck billed platypus?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:42 pm 
Offline
Insolent Pup
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:26 am
Posts: 550
Quick question: if god "created" man, why does it get credit only for the positive attributes of people? Aren't those negative ones also part of the "creation"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:28 pm 
Offline
chocolate bearer
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:27 am
Posts: 3351
Location: beachcombing, or hiking, or dragon boating
I can't speak for others, but for me, Life isn't a duel between two competing forces, Good and Evil. I think it's just Good, but in various degrees of good. What we perceive as the bad stuff is more of a lack or a shadow than a second and independent force. And rather subjective on our part, anyway. If someone chooses to do something that hurts me, it feels bad to me, but taking that person's free will away completely would distress me even more, so I'm willing to tolerate it to some degree. I don't want a lock-step world in which everyone is perfect. It would be boring. Creativity is messy, false starts are educational. And one man's sorrow is another man's joy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:59 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39531
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
I agree, narya. TED, in answer to your question, I would say that the negative attributes of people are because we aren't what God intended us to be—and because we have free will, we can fully express those negatives if we choose to. Evil is possible because we don't have the lock-step world Narya mentions (thank God).

I don't believe Good and Evil are equals and opposites, but I do think good has meaning only because evil is possible.

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:03 pm 
Offline
not something I would recommend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm
Posts: 13479
Location: Florida
It has been argued that, yes, we have free will, but we also have tendencies and to the Christian believer it would be said those tendencies were created too. A simple example would be us tending to like cheesecake more than broccoli. A worse example would be our (apparent) tendency to see people different than us as "other", often leading us to, you know, try to kill them. Both of those tendencies - maybe we could call them instincts? - would have been created by God if a God created us.

_________________
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:23 pm 
Offline
Living in hope
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:43 am
Posts: 39531
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Well, I happen to believe we evolved to be what we are, but that God has hopes for us. :)

_________________
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:45 pm 
Offline
Insolent Pup
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:26 am
Posts: 550
You're blaming evolution then for the negatives? Down with Evil Evolution! :P

Why are the negatives because we aren't what god intended us to be? What was the intention? I'd say it's entirely plausible that the positives are what this god did not intend. This is one of the aspects of the worship of dieties that I just don't understand. It seems to me that believers pick the good as defining characteristics of their god and attribute the negative elsewhere.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group