Zoroastrianism and Judaism (and Christianity and Islam)

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Kushana
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Zoroastrianism and Judaism (and Christianity and Islam)

Post by Kushana »

In the Mormons and Christianity thread, Jnyusa said:
Kushana was going to instruct us, at one point, about the Zoroastrian foundations of Judaism, which I am eager to hear about, but I think she's working hard on her book right now.
Land sakes, email, PM, IM, send pigeons when something like that slips my mind! Yes, I'm working on a book; No, I don't mean to forget things like that.

Let me start out by noting that Zoroastrianism is a very old religion, at least as old as Hinduism, and both religions have common, ancient roots in Central Asia. Zoroastrianism is also very stable, doctrinally: I can think of one (short-lived) schism in its entire history.

Zoroastrianism is monotheistic: it has a supreme good God, lesser beings-worthy-of-worship, and an evil principle -- which is never worshiped. (Indeed the entire point of Zoroastrianism is resisting and undermining the work of the evil principle from one's own thoughts to the world at large. ) Creation begins with one man, in a paradise, with a tree (and an ox.) The intervention of evil creates the world as we know it: a salty sea, fire that gives smoke, and a world where good an evil are mixed (even in the human heart.) In the End there will be a general resurrection and everyone will have to walk through a river of fire: to the good it will be as warm milk, to the bad it will be - well - as a river of fire. Good and Evil will again be separated and Evil defeated.

The Babylonian Exile dispersed the Jews in the Persian Empire. (Chronology: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... xile2.html Note the Persian setting of the later books in the Hebrew Bible.) The state religion of the Persian empire was Zoroastrianism. The edict of Cyrus (the Persian Emperor) that allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the Temple was one of several similar edicts to other peoples. For this, Judaism hailed Cyrus as the Messiah. At this point several concepts enter Judaism: a Messiah (there are 3 in Zoroastrianism for different eras of history, one is born of a virgin), the general resurrection of the dead at the End, the idea of an End, itself; the Last Judgment, an evil principle, and anxieties not about their contract with God as a people but about God's goodness and the persistence of evil men and misfortunes on earth. Theses were not strong concepts in Judaism before exposure to Zoroastrianism, all of these ideas are Zoroastrian and (looking around the region at the time) can't be anyone else's. (There is a judgment of the individual dead person in Egyptian religion but it's quite different and there's no resurrection.) Jewish burial practices also change to resemble Zoroastrian practices where the bones are exposed then moved -- handling bones (or corpses at all) is otherwise viewed with horror in Judaism -- yet it is the bones that are necessary for the resurrection at the End. (Think of ossuaries.)

This same set of concept also appears in Christianity (from Judaism) and Islam (I'd argue from Judaism, although I know less than I should about Arab religion before Islam.) Yet Zoroastrianism has no "Problem of Evil": God has nothing to do with evil and does not in any way permit or allow it, all that is bad comes from the encroachment of the evil principle. Zoroastrianism has had no religious wars, that I know of. Zoroastrianism has (with the exception of Manichaeism...) tolerated other religions. Zoroastrianism has never, evidently, had a religious purge or inquisition. People of other beliefs are not associated with the evil principle or seen as embodiments or representatives of it; Zoroastrianism emphasizes "Good thoughts, Good words, Good deeds" for each adherent -- given the mischief the idea of the Devil has caused its younger siblings it is remarkable that it never did.

(It's also a religion that encourages the killing of wasps :D there's no Johnny Appleseed "Oh, but there God's critters, too." (The bit of roof over my front door has become Prime Wasp Real Estate this Spring: it's hard to approach this with the proper zeal when one's, say, been studying Hinduism.)

-Kushana
(I wrote all of this off the top of my head, please catch me if I've made any goofs.)

Note: the Zoroastrians (Parsis) are still around today ... not that you'd know that from reading most scholars in my field. :P
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Post by yovargas »

Fascinating! :)
Is Zoroastrianism still being practiced today to any significant extent?
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

yovargas wrote:Is Zoroastrianism still being practiced today to any significant extent?
As far as I know, it's almost extinct. Only a few hundred followers somewhere in the Middle East.
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Post by Crucifer »

A God is not dead until It has no followers.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Thanks, Kushana!
Land sakes, email, PM, IM, send pigeons when something like that slips my mind!
To be honest, it had slipped my mind as well. It was back there somewhere, waiting to remembered but ... you remembered it first!
This same set of concept also appears in Christianity (from Judaism) and Islam (I'd argue from Judaism, although I know less than I should about Arab religion before Islam.)
Mohammed studied for some years at a Christian monastery. I believe a great many things came into Islam from Christianity as well.
It's also a religion that encourages the killing of wasps.
Excellent. I'm allergic to wasps and go into a panic when they get into my house. If they were above the lintel of my house I would check into a hotel. :scarey: But there is possibly another hygienic reason for killing them: they produce nothing beneficial to humans but rather prey on the very beneficial spider.
There is a judgment of the individual dead person in Egyptian religion but it's quite different and there's no resurrection.
I'm actually fond of the Egyptian judgment ... that's the goddess Maat, yes? She places the human heart on one side of the scale, and on the other side of the scale she places ... a feather. Good lesson in that!

(eta: the feather has to weigh more than the heart, in case anyone was wondering)
the Zoroastrians (Parsis) are still around today
I believe they are concentrated in the southeast corner of Iran, having fled to the Kingdom of Herat during some persecution whose time frame I've forgotten. (Sovereign Herat was made to not-exist after WWI and its land was divided between Iran and Afghanistan ... predictably, the heir to the throne is one of our adversaries in A.)

That was fascinating, Kushana. So many of those ideas seem to me far more Christian than Jewish, and I'd always assumed that they entered Christianity from 'somewhere else' after the first century. But I think also that modern Judaism, in shedding so many of its orthodox elements, may have reverted to an earlier (more radical) form. For example, in some respects we are more 'tribal' today than at any other time since the diaspora, imo. And it is hard, outside of Orthodoxy, to find Jews who adhere to a body of dogma beyond acknowledgment of mitzvot ... (which are themselves defined quite liberally).

Jn
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Post by Kushana »

yovargas wrote:Fascinating! :)
Is Zoroastrianism still being practiced today to any significant extent?
Yovargas! Good to see you. :)

There are active communities in the Near East and India (especially in Gujarat (in north western India) and the city of Mumbai (Bombay) and a diaspora throughout the rest of the world.

This site says there are 200,000 adherents:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia. ... Zoro1.html

Their scriptures (not a quick read!):
http://www.avesta.org/

I've met perhaps half a dozen; they were all tremendously kind and polite (a high opinion shared by my non-Zoroastrian Indian friends.) I was raised with ladylike manners and I always feel like a terrible, selfish churl after being around them. A professor of Zoroastianism Studies once remarked to me that all the famous ones are very atypical -- it doesn't strike me as a religion that encourages get-ahead ruthless ambition.

-Kushana
Last edited by Kushana on Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kushana »

Dear Jnyusa,

You're welcome, I'm so sorry I forgot -- the whole topic has been a bee in my bonet for nearly two years.
To be honest, it had slipped my mind as well. It was back there somewhere, waiting to remembered but ... you remembered it first!
Well, if you say so.
Mohammed studied for some years at a Christian monastery. I believe a great many things came into Islam from Christianity as well.
Hm, do you have any specifics? (The whole topic of religious influences fascinates me.)
Excellent. I'm allergic to wasps...
I dislike them and I sincerely wished they buzzed (or rattled, or something): I don't like anything silent that stings.

/K. leads a chorus of "All Things Dull and Ugly"
I'm actually fond of the Egyptian judgment ... that's the goddess Maat, yes?
Truth, aye.
She places the human heart on one side of the scale, and on the other side of the scale she places ... a feather. Good lesson in that!
I always thought it was quite an image, too.

It shows up in Christianity, also:
http://www.vidimus.org/archive/issue_4_ ... 07-03.html

That was fascinating, Kushana. So many of those ideas seem to me far more Christian than Jewish, and I'd always assumed that they entered Christianity from 'somewhere else' after the first century.
That is a sentiment that's plucked at me, too -- yet it's not Greco-Roman, either. Greek and Roman myths traditionally have no End, their afterlife is based on temporary punishment and reincarnation, handling (or dissentering) the dead also horrified them ... it just didn't explain those 'alien' elements and there weren't the right kind of tracks for those ideas to have started with Christianity (or originated in early Judaism.)

Modern Judaism has backed off a lot of things it thought and did during the Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman periods (adopting Greek, assimilating Greek culture and philosophy and literature, certain decisions about how to relate to dominant cultures -- weirdly enough it went back to Aramaic, the official language of the Persian Empire.) It looks back to the Rabbis much more than one might suspect, at first glance -- a wonderful and fascinating world in its own right, late Antique and Medieval Judaism, but I often pinch myself while reading things in my own era of specialization and wonder if I've got a hold of the same religion. (It is, but try reading Ezekiel the Tragedian (Charles' Old Testament Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha) for a bit of culture shock...)

-Kushana
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Post by Jnyusa »

Kushana wrote:Hm, do you have any specifics?
First I have to remember where I read it. The monastery was in Palestine or Syria ... I had known that Mohammed came into contact with Christianity and Judaism from his earliest years, as the Quraysh were traders, but it was in one particular book that I read about his stay and his studies with a particular Christian monk. I'll have to track it down and post the source.

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Post by Jnyusa »

Kushana,

I googled around a bit to see what I could find on the web, but the only story I came across was the story of the monk Bahira, and that was in Basra. None of the other (Moslem) sites I visited gave any history in between Basra and the revelation in the cave, except for the trip to Syria on behalf of Kadijah and his marriage to her.

This was something I read recently, I just don't recall the source, so it was probably on the web and not in a book, and I'm wondering now if it is a Christian elaboration on the Bahira story, which may itself be apocryphal, or

.... oh wait, wait! I just found it. It's a book. Yes, the accuracy is to be doubted though because the author says that the sources are not reliable. This is from one of the books that I used to prep a seminar lecture on Central Asia. Wilfrid Blunt, The Golden Road to Samarkand(NY, NY: Viking Press, 1973), from Chapter 3, "Mohammed and Kutayba", ~pp 15-19 .

OK, the story being preceded by a brief (one paragraph) account of the Nestorians in the region, it states simply that Mohammed made multiple visits to a Nestorian monastery in Syria where he had befriended a particular monk on his travels, and there learned the rudiments of Christianity. The monk is not named, but this does sound like a variation on the Bahira tale. It did not strike me as out of place while reading it because monasteries often serve as caravanserai.

When I was in undergraduate days at my very Catholic university, I did a senior theology paper on the Islamic view of Jesus. At that time I had access to multiple sources, all of which I've forgotten. But I can probably find the paper again with a bit of hunting and pass the sources along.

There is quite a bit of Christian thought embedded in Islam, according to my understanding. One legend quoted in the above book, for example, has the heart of Mohammed being washed of original sin by the Angel Gabriel. And unless my memory completely deceives me, there is at least one sura that refers to Mary Jesus' mother.

Probably Superwizard could talk at length about this without having to look anything up!

Jn
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Post by WampusCat »

Another modern Zoroastrian (at least he was raised in the religion) was the late Freddie Mercury of Queen. The first time I heard that fact, I was amazed that Zoroastrianism was still practiced.

Fascinating.
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Post by Inanna »

Parsis are still present and practising their religion in India, even today. But they are very few in number, and dwindling. In Bangalore, you can still order great Parsi food.

This was very interesting, Kushana - the only thing I have known of Parsis is their different way of handling the dead.

A family friend married a guy who was half-Parsi a few years ago. But most of the traiditions the guy brought into the marriage were Punjabi - his other half.
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Post by Kushana »

Thank you, Mahima! I'm all in favor of learning-through-cuisine.

Dear Jnyusa,

Thank you for looking up the reference so quickly.

The Silk Road is following me .... :scarey: (I think I have a penpal from Urumchi, China ... now I have a stack of Silk Road books to read.)
Wilfrid Blunt, The Golden Road to Samarkand(NY, NY: Viking Press, 1973), from Chapter 3, "Mohammed and Kutayba", ~pp 15-19.
Added to the stack...
It did not strike me as out of place while reading it because monasteries often serve as caravanserai.
Very true.
When I was in undergraduate days at my very Catholic university, I did a senior theology paper on the Islamic view of Jesus .... I can probably find the paper again with a bit of hunting and pass the sources along.
My brain has started to drop its recollection of Science Fiction after jamming the details of Sethian Gnosticism into it: let me wait until I've forgotten some of those.
There is quite a bit of Christian thought embedded in Islam, according to my understanding .... Probably Superwizard could talk at length about this without having to look anything up!
Then let's talk about it! :D

(*Sigh* It's time for me to do something stupid and inconsequential until my brain stops balking at remembering what I read.)

-Kushana
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Post by Jnyusa »

Kushana wrote:I think I have a penpal from Urumchi, China ... now I have a stack of Silk Road books to read.
Ah yes, you mentioned that, and I intended (but forgot) to pass along my little tidbit of information about Urumchi. :D

For many centuries (I believe it was many centuries) they were the source of bricks for the whole Tarim basin. The buildings of Kashgar were made of bricks carried from Urumchi around the Taklamakan desert. What determination that must have taken!

I had a Chinese student some years ago who decided on her summer home to travel the Silk Road from ... well, somewhere along the Wall, I don't recall now exactly where she started ... but up through Turfan and Urumchi and then along the northerwestern route over the Taklamakan all the way to Kashgar. I believe she and her travelling companions went by bus most of the way. Her pictures were absolutely wonderful, and it was such a treat to hear the accounts of someone who had seen those places in person.

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Post by baby tuckoo »

We've mentioned here before that the Three Kings/Magi of the adoration were Zoroastrians who had seen the light, as it were. Kipling had fun personifying the "Farsi" in several books. The religion itself had an interesting arch.


Religions start out embodying the best of human aspirations: peace, generosity, kindness, love. Then humans with ambitions notice how much power these ideas have, and they slowly move the religions around until they're all about Being Right. And the people who are not right are wrong. So among other things, the Persians against the Greeks was a holy war, but it was mostly about land, I think. And pride.


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Post by truehobbit »

Not really on topic, but I just have to speak up for wasps here.

It's just not true they are pests, on the contrary, they are important in pest control, as they feed on other insects that may often be pests.

Also, the normal, yellow wasp that gets on people's nerves when they try to eat plumcake in the garden is fairly harmless and will only sting when irritated. True, they can be annoying when they just won't leave you alone with your food, but who says you have a right to eat outside undisturbed? :P

Of course, if you're allergic, it's not harmless to be stung, but that's not the problem of the animal. ;)

(And it's also true that there are species with very scary habits of reproduction. :shock: )

(Btw, isn't the "killing of wasps" in a religious context meant metaphorically?)


In case you don't want to take my word for wasps being useful, here's a quote from wikipedia:
Wasps are critically important in natural biocontrol. Almost every pest insect species has a wasp species that is a predator or parasite upon it. Parasitic wasps are also increasingly used in agricultural pest control as they have little impact on crops. Wasps also constitute an important part of the food chain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp
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Post by baby tuckoo »

*ignores Hobby*


Chester A. Arthur was a Zarathustrian.






Sorry. Just checked. He was a Presbyterian. That's different.
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Post by Inanna »

Thats cool info, Hobby. Thanks - I learn something new everyday on HoF. :)
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Post by solicitr »

Parsis are still present and practising their religion in India, even today. But they are very few in number, and dwindling
Many Indian and Pakistani Parsis, under pressure from less-ecumenical Muslim neighbors, emigrated to Zanzibar off East Africa, where there is a fair-sized community today. It was from there that F. Mercury's parents moved to England.
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Post by Crucifer »

Hmmm... What is this "Zorroadmirationism"?
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Post by baby tuckoo »

My almanac tells me that today Zanzibar (which is the "zan" in Tanzania) is now 99% Muslim. That might be why the Mercurys (if that was their name) went to England.
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