Túrin: Tolkien's Autobiographical Flawed Hero?

[axordil]

Tom-

I'm pretty sure that no one in this discussion would go so far as to call the Sil an autobiography, or even an autobiographical novel. However, none of what you note there means there aren't autobiographical elements, conscious or no, in Túrin or any other character that JRRT created. That's what I believe VtF proposed. It's certainly how I look at the discussion.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I believe it would be most informative to look at the source story (or stories) in the Kalevala to see at what points Túrin differs from it (or them), then consider whether Tolkien deliberately altered those points to more closely align with his own life. As I have never read the Kalevala, I haven't any clue what the outcome of that investigation would be.

Of course, if it was found that the source story or stories from the Kalevala were not altered to more closely fit Tolkien's own life, one could then argue that Tolkien deliberately chose that/those story/stories because he saw similarities to his own life and we'd be back to square one.

[Alatar]

For what its worth Tom, I agree with you, but I generally stay out of these discussions.

[Frelga]

* pulls up a chair to watch Tom and V fight tooth and nail *



Me, I think it is impossible for a writer to write a convincing story unless he/she has gone through the emotional state ascribed to the characters, even if the intensity of the emotions is amplified to server the story. The events of the story need not be an actual retelling of the author's experiences. I think it's clear that Tolkien knows something of the abandonment, loss, defiance and so on that Túrin goes through. That does not make him an autobiographical hero, necessarily, or by another definition that makes every good character an autobiographical character to a certain extent.

I do think that to be truly autobiographical, the character must experience events similar to those in author's actual life and react to them in the way similar to the author's actual reactions. In that sense, Faramir perhaps is a better fit, a bookish young man who liked library and wizard's lore but whose fate and duty was to become a soldier.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

...but I generally stay out of these discussions.

You're a wise man, Alatar.

(Thanks for the support. We singers need to stick together. )

* pulls up a chair to watch Tom and V fight tooth and nail *

And I trimmed my nails just this morning.

So, anybody wanna read Kalevala? I don't own a copy but it's on my wish list at Amazon.com.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

For what its worth Tom, I agree with you, but I generally stay out of these discussions.

I wish you wouldn't, Al. I always appreciate it when you express your views in these discussions, particularly when they differ from mine. It is the sharing of different thoughts that increase everyone's understanding.

* pulls up a chair to watch Tom and V fight tooth and nail *

That is really distressing to me, Frelga. It is not my intention to fight with anyone; I have far too much of that in my professional life as it is. I think it is possible to have a discussion and share differing thoughts without it turning into an argument, where people have to dig in their heals and "not back down". I don't want anyone to "back down"; I want them to feel comfortable with expressing whatever thoughts they have. Tom, you seem to have misunderstood several things that I have said in this thread, which I am sure is a result of my failure to properly express myself. I don't really see any hope of rectifying that, so I will withdraw from the discussion before any further damage is done.

My apologies to Tom and to all.

[axordil]

Of course, if it was found that the source story or stories from the Kalevala were not altered to more closely fit Tolkien's own life, one could then argue that Tolkien deliberately chose that/those story/stories because he saw similarities to his own life and we'd be back to square one.

Welcome to the big wide world of literary criticism.

Seriously--the matter of why an author chooses to write something one way and not another, or picks a trait for a character, or writes in the first place is a matter of much speculation and often, few good answers. That doesn't keep us from trying.

[Primula Baggins]

Especially when, from what I've read, authors are often not at all conscious of why they write something in a particular way. One can examine the text for interesting relationships, and the relationships are often probably valid, but it isn't at all necessary to say the author put them there "deliberately." (Which I don't think Voronwë was saying.)

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I think we're all more or less agreeing to the same thing, but we're hung up on "autobiographical". I will admit--it's hardly possible for me not to--that I can be a stickler for semantics. In my defense, I feel that the words we use are very important. If we water them down, they lose their savor. Imprecision in one’s speech (or writing) leads to ambiguities, and ambiguities lead to misunderstandings.

I thank you for your apology, Voronwë, although I did not particularly feel that I was owed one. I think it’s sufficient for you to acknowledge that my understanding of the term “autobiographical” is a valid one. I apologize, too, for the bluntness of my initial post. In hindsight, I should probably have lightened it up a bit.

[Frelga]

Voronwë, I'm sorry I distressed you. Saddened, too, that your attention was given to the unfortunate joke and not the serious part of my post. I had assumed that Tom, you and I all knew each other well enough for me to venture a bit of sillyness. I apologize and will restrain myself in the future.

[axordil]

Frelga--

I have been feeling that the average prickly level has been higher here for a couple of weeks. I don't know why. I would, however, encourage you not to restrain yourself from making a good-hearted joke, which you certainly did.

edit to add--
Just so people know, I include myself in that tetchiness. I have restrained myself for more ill-considered posts the past couple of weeks than usual. I really don't know what's up.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Frelga, I agree with ax and with the serious part of your previous post. Being humourless is no fun at all.

To get back on topic, if we're looking for 'autobiographical' characters in Tolkien's work, what about Faramir? Although his story may bear little resemblance to Tolkien's own (except for the loss of his mother, as far as I know), I seem to recall reading somewhere that Tolkien himself said that Faramir reflected his own way of thinking more than any of the characters in LOTR. But then, I am led once again back to Frodo, who seems to think somewhat similiarly to Faramir. So I guess I'd argue that Frodo is the most autobiographical character. He combines a few Tolkien's essential biographical details, Tolkien's way of thinking, and Tolkien's love of his home, the Shire or England. That's probably oversimplifying it and I expect someone will come in and prove me wrong, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. For now.

[axordil]

Tolkien himself said that Faramir reflected his own way of thinking more than any of the characters in LOTR.

I think that's how he saw himself, yes. Faramir and Frodo are probably the characters that JRRT projected his own nature onto the most, as Gandalf is probably the character that he projected his own worldview onto the most.

Túrin, and even Beren, are less projections than they are reflections.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Frelga, it wasn't your joke that distressed me, but rather the underlying reality that the discussion was turning into an argument that I did not want. I agree with Ax and Mossy (and you) that humor is a good thing, and I encourage you not to refrain from engaging in it in the future.

And I did appreciate the serious part of your post, but I don't really have the heart to continue to engage in the discussion, though I will continue to read it with interest.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Frelga, I recognized your jest. As others have done, I encourage you to continue to bless us with your humor. I certainly don't intend to stop injecting humor when the occasion calls.

Voronwë, I'm sorry that our debate has caused you to feel so poorly that you feel you needed to withdraw from this discussion. Please continue, I will instead withdraw as you undoubtedly have much more to add to this conversation than I.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's very generous, Tom, but I have a better idea. How about we both enrich the discussion with our thoughts, and agree to disagree amicably?

Deal?

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Deal?

Deal.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

[Frelga]

Just to prove that I am not THAT restrained.

[Primula Baggins]