It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:36 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Concerning Mellyrn
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:33 am
Posts: 67
This I copy from another post of mine on another Tolkien forum (before it died) from April 26, 2004:

MALLORN: A Sindarin word consisting of the two elements [mall-] [orn], respectively meaning Golden Tree. It is pluralized as mellyrn. The Quenya cognates are malinornë (sg.) and malinorni (pl.), apparently with the same significance.

Description of a mallorn:

Unfinished Tales wrote:
Its bark was silver and smooth, and its boughs somewhat upswept after the manner of the beech; but it never grew save with a single trunk. Its leaves, like those of the beech but greater, were pale green above and beneath were silver, glistening in the sun; in the autumn they did not fall, but turned to pale gold. In the spring it bore golden blossoms in clusters like the cherry, which bloomed on during the summer; and as soon as the flowers opened the leaves fell, so that through spring and summer a grove of malinorni was carpeted and roofed with gold, but its pillars were of grey silver. Its fruit was a nut with a silver shale...
- Unfinished Tales


It seems clear to me that these wonders would be a marvel to see. When I was flipping through Unfinished Tales and saw another passage (which I will relay shortly), it brought to mind another comment I had read long ago but given little thought to; while speaking to the Fellowship in the woods of Lothlórien, Haldir the Elf said:
Haldir wrote:
"Alas for Lothlórien that I love! It would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew. But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it."

When I read that, I pitied the Elves of Lothlórien, and understood the sacrifice that was being made; how all Galadriel had done with Nenya, her Ring, would be unmade once the One Ring was destroyed.

However, it seems that I empathized with the Elf too soon - according to what I have read, there were mellyrn in the West, though it is only subtlely hinted to in LotR. For one, Sam's mallorn was described as:

RotK wrote:
the only mallorn west of the Mountains and east of the Sea, and one of the finest in the World.


So the Professor is implying that mallorn-trees grew in the West. What's more, I've come across more passages to elaborate upon that very fact, and the history of mallorn-trees in Middle-earth (i.e. Lothlórien).

According to the Unfinished Tales, Galadriel received mallorn-'seeds' from her nephew Gil-galad of Lindon. Apparently he had tried to plant them in Lindon near the Havens, but with no such luck.

But it doesn't end there - the text infers that Gil-galad was sent the seeds in his possession by Tar-Aldarion — the fourth king of Númenor! Apparently mallorn-trees were abundant in the region of Nísimaldor (in Númenor), specifically at the haven of Eldalondë where other great trees and plant life grew, such as the oiolairë, lairelossë, laurinquë, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelassë, and yavannamírë. Even more surprising, it is noted that those trees were all brought to Númenor by the Eldar of Tol Eressëa - and that the mellyrn in Númenor were not as grand or magnificent as those in Tol Eressëa. (Galadriel's mellyrn in Lothlórien were said to pale in comparison to those of Númenor, so therefore the ones on the Lonely Isle would be even more grand, compared to hers!)

Ok, so I went from feeling sorry for the Elves of Lothlórien because they had to depart over the Sea and go to a land without mellyrn (as Haldir put it), to finding out that they were actually leaving for a place where mellyrn were more beautiful, more abundant, and far greater than the ones they had known in Lothlórien? :shock: And I was all worked up over those poor Elves? Please.... :roll:

(How does that fit for "some arcane and interesting Tolkien subject", Voronwë?)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:45 am 
Offline
still raining, still dreaming
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:55 am
Posts: 1406
Location: On the far side of nowhere
I'm not Voronwë :D (although we have sometimes been known to think alike on some Tolkien-related topics) but I think your post is both fascinating and worthy of entry into the fabled halls of Tolkien geekdom.

:horse:

Should one assume that Yavanna planted the first Mallorn? As a gift to Arda and the Elves, inspired by Telperion and Laurelin?

_________________
Image

Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:27 am 
Offline
Ingólemo
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 864
Quote:
Should one assume that Yavanna planted the first Mallorn? As a gift to Arda and the Elves, inspired by Telperion and Laurelin?

I thought that was stated somewhere in UT of The Sil was it not? :?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:36 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 34029
Great post, Tyrhael! It is actually a subject that I have thought about before, and it fits in with a broader topic which I have been thinking about recently (and which inspired this thread): the question of the ways in which the world of The Lord of Rings conflicts with the larger universe of the Silmarillion and related works.

I will have more to say later.

_________________
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:37 am 
Offline
still raining, still dreaming
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:55 am
Posts: 1406
Location: On the far side of nowhere
Teh S'wizkid wrote:
Quote:
I thought that was stated somewhere in UT of The Sil was it not? :?


:scratch:

Could be.
I may well have read it but if I did I've forgotten the source.

<goes off to google>

A cursory search says nothing about Yavanna and the first Mallorn tree.
Nothing in Letters, either. I'll search a bit more in the Sil and UT tomorrow when I have time.

Still, even if Tolkien didn't explicity say so, it's a pleasing thought, no?

_________________
Image

Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:02 am 
Offline
2018 Fitbit Balrog*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 11571
Quote:
When I read that, I pitied the Elves of Lothlórien, and understood the sacrifice that was being made; how all Galadriel had done with Nenya, her Ring, would be unmade once the One Ring was destroyed.


There is an interesting topic here. If the elves of Lothlórien would miss M-E when they depart for the West.

There can be two opposing points of view here:
1) Of course, they would! Lothlórien was very beautiful, unchanging and for many of the Elves their place of birth and for all of them, their home.
2) Only for a while. The Elves of Lothlórien would be going to a place far more beautiful than Lothlórien itself. They would be in a place where immortality was the norm, rather the exception. They would be with their own people as well as close to the Ainur... something all Elves wish for.

What do you folks think? What did JRRT have to say about it?

_________________
*title copyright: Teremia

'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude (as Merry)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:04 am 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 34029
I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anything about that eitherway anywhere in the Sil, or the Sil texts in HoME (right now I think I can confidently say that I know those works just about as well as anyone in the world :shock: ). And I don't recall anything in Unfinished Tales, either, so unless S'Wiz comes up with a specific quote, I have to believe that there is no specific statement to the contrary.

Really the only relevant comment in the Sil that I can think of is this, from the last paragraph of Chapter 5:

Quote:
For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman


So it is a pretty good bet that the first Mallorn trees were in fact 'planted' by Yavanna. I would go for "as a gift to Arda" (though not necessarily specifically to the Elves). As for "inspired by Telperion and Laurelin" I think, Sass, you are thinking of Galathilion, the White Tree of Tirion, which Yavanna made for the Elves as a lesser image of Telperion, a seedling of which was planted in Tol Eressëa and named Celeborn, and a seedling of that tree planted in Númenor and named Nimloth, a seedling of which Isildur saved and brought to Gondor when Númenor was destroyed.

_________________
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:25 am 
Offline
Fëanoriondil
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:13 pm
Posts: 1912
I think that the elves who were born in Aman (or who had lived there) yearned for it in "exile" - so Galadriel would have felt she was going home. But...for elves who had always lived in Middle Earth (like Haldir), it was a terrible wrench to leave. Over the Sea may be better, but it sure wouldn't feel that way!

Elves love "their" land deeply, and the elves of Lothlórien would have mourned its loss even if the place they were going was much better.
It is true that what made Lothlórien special (its mellyrn, its changelessness) is trumped by Tol Eressëa (bigger mellyrn! even less change!)
But...it just wouldn't be the same.

Besides, by the time Haldir would get there, the island would be over-crowded and all the best real estate taken.


Hi, Hobbit Guy!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:53 am 
Offline
Ingólemo
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 864
Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
As for "inspired by Telperion and Laurelin" I think, Sass, you are thinking of Galathilion, the White Tree of Tirion, which Yavanna made for the Elves as a lesser image of Telperion, a seedling of which was planted in Tol Eressëa and named Celeborn, and a seedling of that tree planted in Númenor and named Nimloth, a seedling of which Isildur saved and brought to Gondor when Númenor was destroyed.

By golly V you're right! I sorry everyone for the confusion I seem to have gotten my trees mixed up! (Never good at remembering those things anyways...) :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Concerning Mellyrn
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:02 pm 
Offline
Cute, cuddly and dangerous to know
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:52 am
Posts: 6011
I think you couldn't get much more arcane, Tyrhael - and very interesting, too! :D

It's my wont to refer the things in Tolkien's writings to real life, mainly because I do feel that this is what he is all about, but also because I don't have any indepth knowledge that would allow me to discuss things in a purely text-related way. :P ;)

Tyrhael wrote:

Ok, so I went from feeling sorry for the Elves of Lothlórien because they had to depart over the Sea and go to a land without mellyrn (as Haldir put it), to finding out that they were actually leaving for a place where mellyrn were more beautiful, more abundant, and far greater than the ones they had known in Lothlórien? :shock: And I was all worked up over those poor Elves? Please.... :roll:


I think what we have here is the normal fear of leaving something good that you know for something unknown, of which you can't tell whether it's good or not - as most poignantly encountered by all humans when it comes to death.
We are always torn between fear of losing the best things we have here, and hope to find the same things, only better. Most religions (at least those that I know about), indeed, have visions of the latter - but that doesn't stop people from thinking they'll have to leave all the good things behind.
So, I think it's only natural for Haldir to feel the way he did, and for you to pity Haldir for his possible loss - but Tolkien also adds that we might be mistaken in those fears and regrets. :)

Although, to look at it from a different perspective, the one of an extremely home-loving hobbit such as me: even if the mellyrn in Númenor are even better than the ones in Lothlórien, they are not the same. And it is usually my fear that I would miss what I've known and loved for a long time, if I had to give it up, even if what I got in exchange was by all standards better and more beautiful. :)

_________________
Image Artwork by Breogán - thank you, my friend! :foryou:


Eine Blume der Asche meines Herzens


but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 92
Could Galadriel have created the mallorn-trees (although I realize, in any case, that according to a late essay: 'In this he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike endowments of Fëanor;...')?

Still, she seems concerned with living things and preserving the natural world around her, and is a powerful Noldo.

Anyway, I think Haldir's words were delivered in a 'phase' in which the mallorn-trees simply grew in Lórien, before Galadriel arrived. Of course as noted, Tolkien added the idea that under her power the mallorns grew in Lórien -- and revealed other mallorns in Eressëa and Númenor (and in the early 1950s, in Gondolin).

So Haldir's words arguably exist within a new conception. But now, since JRRT naturally decided that Galadriel did not take up permanent residence in Lórien until after the death of Amroth (almost two thousand years into the Third Age, although she had visited there earlier, and such visits could be very long by mortal standards), the question arises, when did she plant them in Lórien, and why?

Why not in Lindon for example (it appears Gil-galad or his people could not get them to grow here, a part of 'Old Beleriand' even)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:03 pm
Posts: 5199
Location: Green Hill Country
This from the Tuckborough website

Quote:
Mallorn

Golden tree of Lothlórien. The mallorn was a great and beautiful tree. Its bark was smooth and silver-grey. The leaves of the mallorn turned golden in autumn. The golden leaves remained on the tree through the winter and fell to cover the ground in the spring. Then new leaves sprouted - green on top and silver underneath - and golden flowers bloomed on the branches.

Mallorn-trees originally grew on Tol Eressëa, the island off the coast of Aman in the Undying Lands. Mallorn-trees may also have grown in the realm of Gondolin in Beleriand. The Elves brought mallorn-trees to the Men of Númenor and they grew on the shores around the Bay of Eldanna.

Tar-Aldarion, the sixth King of Númenor, gave silver nuts of the mallorn as a gift to Gil-galad in Lindon in Middle-earth. The mallorn-trees did not take root in Lindon, but Galadriel brought some of the nuts to Lothlórien and planted them. Under her care, the mallorn-trees grew and flourished and Lothlórien became known as the Golden Wood.

[Unfinished Tales: "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin," p. 56 (note 31); "A Description of the Island of Númenor," p. 167-68; "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn," p. 253 ]



In Unfinished Tales: "A Description of the Island of Númenor," lists other trees from the undying lands:

Quote:
Lairelossë
Tree of the Undying Lands and Númenor. Lairelosse grew on the island of Tol Eressëa. It was one of the varieties of trees given by the Elves to the Men of Númenor. Lairelosse flourished on the west coast of Númenor in the region of Nisimaldar, or "Fragrant Trees." It was an evergreen tree and it had a sweet scent. The name lairelosse, meaning "summer snow-white," suggests that the tree may have had white blossoms in the summertime.

Nessamelda
Tree of the Undying Lands and Númenor. Nessamelda grew on the island of Tol Eressëa. It was brought to Númenor as a gift from the Elves along with many other kinds of trees. Nessamelda was evergreen and fragrant. It grew abundantly in the region on the west coast of Númenor called Nisimaldar, meaning "the Fragrant Trees." The name Nessamelda means "beloved of Nessa."

Oiolairë
Tree of the Undying Lands and Númenor. The oiolaire was an evergreen tree with glossy, fragrant leaves. It was brought to Númenor by the Elves of Tol Eressëa in the Undying Lands. The oiolaire grew abundantly in the region of Nisimaldar in western Númenor around the Bay of Eldanna and flourished in the sea-air. The name oiolairë means "ever-summer" in Quenya

Yavannamírë
Tree of the Undying Lands and Númenor. The yavannamire was a tree with scarlet, globe-shaped fruit. It was brought to Númenor by the Elves of Tol Eressëa in the Undying Lands. The trees flourished in Númenor, particularly in Nisimaldar on the shore of the Bay of Eldanna on the west coast. The name yavannamírë means "jewel of Yavanna" in Quenya.

_________________
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 92
Quote:
Mallorn-trees originally grew on Tol Eressëa,...


IIRC, we know that mallorns grew there, but not that they necessarily originated on Tol Eressëa... unless 'originally' is just being used to refer to the known history, maybe.

Thus my question: could Galadriel have created this kind of Tree in Aman? Although that's total speculation of course, in any case.

And I'm not sure yet that I don't better like what appears to be the very early notion, that the mallorn-trees grew in Lórien in the deep past, before Galadriel arrived.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:04 pm 
Offline
Feeling grateful
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:41 am
Posts: 34029
I don't think that I would be willing to conclude that Galadriel created Mallorn trees from scratch in Valinor, anymore than Fëanor created the light that lit the Silmarils from scratch. Surely Yavanna must have been responsible for the actual creation of the trees, though conceivably it could have been influenced by Galadriel in some way.

As for the question of which version of the story is preferable, I see why you would say that you may like the older notion of the mallorn-trees growing in Lórien before Galadriel arrived. However, the idea of the Mallorn trees growing in Lórien because of Galadriel's influence fits in well with an idea that I am playing around with in my head, which I hope to write up at some point soon.

_________________
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:44 pm
Posts: 92
Hmm... I'm interested to hear your idea Voronwë.

Yes, with Galadriel I mean something like: she sang to a young, favorite beech perhaps... and in time thus 'created' a mallorn (eventually maybe, in slow stages).

Though I'm not sure I've convinced me yet of the 'possibility' :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group