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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:23 pm 
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If he indeed publishes the BoLT Tinúviel, then Goodolin in the same format is absolutely a given.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:49 am 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean about Thingol being incapable of pettiness

I was referring to Christopher Tolkien’s remarks: “How [my father] would have treated Thingol’s behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king.” (XI.355) And, “Thingol in the later conception is proud, and stern; he is also wise, and powerful, and greatly increased in stature and in knowledge through his union with a Maia. Could such a king have sunk to the level of miserly swindling that is portrayed in the Tales of the Nauglafring?” (II.246)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:29 am 
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And of course (as would be expected from the person that has studied J.R.R. Tolkien's works more closely than anyone else), he is quite right. And the prideful, arrogant (and still greedy) scorn that he treats the Dwarves with in the (invented) published account is really quite consistent with the Thingol in Tolkien's later conception.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:57 am 
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One thing that is kind of neat about the QS version is that the story is broken into five chapters, though they are grouped under the general heading, “Of Beren and Tinúviel.” Here’s how they break down (page numbers for the hardcover Silmarillion):

12 Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel (pp. 162-8)
13 The Quest of the Silmaril (pp. 168-76)
14 The Quest of the Silmaril 2 (pp. 176-83)
15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3: The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth (pp. 183-6)
16 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos (pp. 186-7)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:50 pm 
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I am reminded in going back to The Lost Road that there was a later prose text that was written after LOTR was completed but when its publication was still in doubt, that Christopher notes was not known to him at the time that he compiled the published Silmarillion. He says "This is a substantial text, though the story goes no further than the betrayal by Dairon to Thingol of Beren's presence in Doriath, and it is so closely based on the rewritten form of the Lay as to read in places almost as a prose paraphrase of the verse." He makes no further note of this in The War of the Jewels. I imagine that we will see this text in the new book.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:21 pm 
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Many people hope so.

It might be helpful in this discussion to establish acronyms for the various major versions of this tale:

ToT - The Tale of Tinúviel (The Book of Lost Tales)
LoL - The Lay of Leithian
QS(A) - long-form draft of chapter 12 (Quenta Silmarillion)
QS I - longish-form manuscript of chapters 12-13 (Quenta Silmarillion)
QS II - short-form manuscript of chapters 12-16 (Quenta Silmarillion)
LoL(R) - The Lay of Leithian Recommenced
GA - The Grey Annals
PS - the “Prose Saga” a.k.a. post-LoTR prose paraphrase of the LoL(R)
S77 - reconstruction by CJRT and GGK (The Silmarillion, 1977)

To me, the definitive way to enjoy this story remains the poetic form: LoL(R) as far as it goes, then LoL as far as it goes. Of course, there already exists a book more-or-less devoted to this (The Lays of Beleriand), so, it may well be thought that it doesn’t need republication in a new format.

But once we have access to the PS, it would be almost trivial to construct a prose version that is as complete as possible. Begin with PS. Then, follow S77, dropping the references to LoL every five seconds and the quotes from LoL, but plugging in as many passages from ToT as had been retained. Eg., Lúthien’s fascinating magical escape from her beech-tree prison is a mere paragraph in S77. It states that the full account can be found in LoL. LoL has several pages devoted to this event, which is basically a poetic poetic paraphrase of the same passage in the prose ToT, where it is also several pages long. So, the ToT passage could essentially just be plopped in at this point. Of course, you will still end up with some pretty bare-bones passages. In those instances, you could either have a writer try his hand at paraphrasing LoL, or, just let these stand as-is. The latter would be my preference, since, again, to me there is no reason to pretend one can’t go and read the full poetic version.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:45 pm 
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It seems to me it would be interesting if someone(!) on this site attempted to construct that narrative from the existing texts before the book is published! :whistle:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:17 pm 
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Yes, "someone" should do that.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:07 am 
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We don't deserve Christopher.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Would you care to elaborate? We do we not "deserve" Christopher because we do not appreciate all that he has done? Because I can assure you that is not the case.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Of course we appreciate his work, it was just a figure of speech. I mean, we are lucky to have him.

The thread I linked to is a what-if scenario, that instead of literary archaeology he'd gone the way of Brian Herbert.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:20 pm 
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I didn't actually notice that it was link! I remember that thread.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:21 am 
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Here is John Garth's review of the new book (about to be released in the UK, but delayed in the US), in the New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/boo ... lost-tales

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Not sure how I feel about that. I was kindo hoping for a "Children of Húrin" treatment, but this sounds more like a HoME version.

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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:31 am 
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It's some place in between, based on my discussions with John. Christopher's commentary is much, much less intrusive than in HoMe. But this was always going to be nothing more than a compilation of the different versions of the Tale that Tolkien wrote, virtually all unfinished or limited in some way. There was no way to give it the CoH treatment without more editorial interference than Christopher was willing or able to do, much as I too would have preferred that. I am doubtful as to how successful this will be at bringing arguably Tolkien's most important Tale to a wider audience.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:07 pm 
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By the way, it was released in the U.S. on June1 after all. Amazon.com had faulty info.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Ok, so I got my copy and have started reading. Some first impressions.

This is not The Children of Húrin, or anything like it. Its far more like HoME, and extremely offputting. The first thing I noted was that there are no new unpublished texts in the volume. Everything has already been published in HoME, UT or the Silmarillion. I'm nearly 40 pages in and have just reached the first version, from Book of Lost Tales. The preceding 30-odd pages seem frankly bizarre to me. For those of us who have read the above titles, its a sort of unnecessary explanation; but for those who have not, its an indecipherable barrier to entry. I simply cannot imagine anyone who is not familiar with HoME reading past this. Anyone who has read The Silmarillion alone would even be confused. Hobbit and LotR readers would be completely lost.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:40 pm 
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I also received my copy, and frankly, my first impression was exactly the same. I think this was done because Christopher wanted there to be a Beren and Lúthien book, but beyond being able to say that there is one, and being a vehicle for some more nice art by Alan Lee, I don't see any real purpose to this release.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Thanks - you guys saved me some money :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:57 pm 
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I'm not completely disappointed that I bought it. It's a pretty book, and the artwork is great, and it is not a bad thing to have the tales gathered together. But I see little necessity for it, and like Al said, I just don't think it has any value in bringing the story to a wider audience, unlike CoH. Which is really why something like this should be done.

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