This is a wee bit out of date, but as the orcs were created by evil to do evil, surely they are totally evil...
That said, Morgoth was created by Good to do good, and he was pretty darn evil...
Hmmm... I need to read my history of Middle Earth. I'll get back to this in a few months...
Were all orcs evil?
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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You should read the whole thread, too, Crucifer. It's a pretty thorough and interesting discussion. You may find you have something to add.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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truehobbit
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Well, I must admit to having read a number of posts in here cursorily only, so maybe I'm missing some things.
I agree with Sassy when she said that Tolkien himself wasn't sure about what he meant.
I also agreed with Anthy's post from ages ago, but what I'm wondering about most is all the discussion about Orcs having souls.
Where in Tolkien's work do souls come in in the first place? Why would you wonder whether Orcs have souls and are redeemable? I was very puzzled by that aspect of the question.
I think the initial question is a fascinating one, but I don't see why 'evil' is so intrinsically connected to 'soul' as it seems to be in the discussion here.
I think that Tolkien was unable to conceive of something exclusively evil, because (from the way I read him) anything that was evil was only fallen from good - which means that 'exclusively evil' does not exist.
(A bit like Darth Vader, who thought he was purely evil, but had only forgotten about the good in him.
)
That does leave the question of the portrayal of orcs as undeserving of pity etc - but, you know, if something has entirely forgotten its claims to 'good', I think no one can be blamed for taking things at face value and treating it as something devoid of good - because that's what it'll have become - irrespective of what its potential may or may not be. The devil himself used to partake of good...but surely no one is expected to try to remind him of that and lead him back to the right path or so...
So, even though "exclusively evil" does not exist in the sense that all evil in only a fall from good, you can still have "exclusively evil" right now. Irrespective of what something used to be, or what potential it may have, if it's evil now, it's evil.
That does not mean it's not up to this entity to decide its fate - but for the purposes of his story, Tolkien never needed to have the orcs doubt themselves.
He might have, though, from the way he created them.
I agree with Sassy when she said that Tolkien himself wasn't sure about what he meant.
I also agreed with Anthy's post from ages ago, but what I'm wondering about most is all the discussion about Orcs having souls.
Where in Tolkien's work do souls come in in the first place? Why would you wonder whether Orcs have souls and are redeemable? I was very puzzled by that aspect of the question.
I think the initial question is a fascinating one, but I don't see why 'evil' is so intrinsically connected to 'soul' as it seems to be in the discussion here.
I think that Tolkien was unable to conceive of something exclusively evil, because (from the way I read him) anything that was evil was only fallen from good - which means that 'exclusively evil' does not exist.
(A bit like Darth Vader, who thought he was purely evil, but had only forgotten about the good in him.
)That does leave the question of the portrayal of orcs as undeserving of pity etc - but, you know, if something has entirely forgotten its claims to 'good', I think no one can be blamed for taking things at face value and treating it as something devoid of good - because that's what it'll have become - irrespective of what its potential may or may not be. The devil himself used to partake of good...but surely no one is expected to try to remind him of that and lead him back to the right path or so...
So, even though "exclusively evil" does not exist in the sense that all evil in only a fall from good, you can still have "exclusively evil" right now. Irrespective of what something used to be, or what potential it may have, if it's evil now, it's evil.
That does not mean it's not up to this entity to decide its fate - but for the purposes of his story, Tolkien never needed to have the orcs doubt themselves.
He might have, though, from the way he created them.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.