Were all orcs evil?

[superwizard]

I have thought of this quite some time now. Tolkien did hint that men that work for Sauron might not all be evil and that many were simply misguided. My question is how about orcs and trolls? If the orcs were thinking creatures like the elves and men than wouldn't at least some of them be good? I am not sure of Tolkien final ideas about the origins of the orcs. But if they were curropted men or elves then why are they seen as always evil? And I don't think they are simply animals either; animals don't go on founding kingdoms and march off to war and the goblins did both in The Hobbit. So what are your opinions on this matter?[/list]

[Voronwë the Faithful]

sw, you've definitely opened a can of worms here. I have no time for a proper response, but I'll be back later. Meanwhile, I'm sure that others will have something to say about this question, which has come up before.

[Faramond]

Bees make kingdoms. Or queendoms, if you will.

It was Semprini who always advocated seeing the orcs as metaphorical, as embodiments of man's capacity for evil and brutality, I think. That's not what he said, though. I should try to find one of Semprini's actual quotes on this, so I don't go putting poorly thought out words in his mouth.

I never much liked the orcs as metaphorical concept, but I came to appreciate more because otherwise we are left with the intractible dilemma of orcs seeming to be thinking creatures who are nevertheless all evil.

There are no indications of good orcs in the books, of course. There are indications that orcs might have wanted something other than fighting for Sauron.

Orcs seem to be man in an utterly fallen state, beyond redemption. I mean that metaphorically, not literally as their origin. However, being a Catholic, Tolkien wouldn't have believed anyone was beyond redemption.

The answer would have to be that they were beasts. With speech, yes, but of a purely derivative, mimicking sort, never imaginative or creative. Their kingdoms would be similar, though in spite of what we see in the Hobbit a better term for this might be a large "pack" with an alpha male.

But even beasts are deserving of mercy at times.

[axordil]

I've been thinking about orcs too, both individually and collectively...and getting two different answers.

Orcish culture is, because of its origins and ongoing exploitation, predisposed to selfishness, the use violence to settle differences, and the combination of bullying and physical cowardice all too familiar to odd-looking kids on schoolyards everywhere. Lying, cheating, and stealing for short-term gain and long-term advantage are expected. No one has your back, except in their sights. For orcs, to show mercy is to demonstrate weakness, to be compassionate is to invite betrayal. Sadism is a brand of orcish honor. Canibalism is de rigeur.

All of these are recognizably human traits. If they weren't, orcs wouldn't be nearly as scary.

The culture inculcates these values in orcs from birth (where are the females, anyway?) onward, which effectively squelches any chance of moral or ethical behavior popping up. What would be the fate of an orc that didn't act like the same as his fellows? Well, pretty much the same as the fate of orcs in general, but a lot sooner.

So: are orcs born with tabulae rosae? If you stole a baby orc from its tribe and raised it, would it inevitably go bad? There is the effect of centuries of selective breeding here. If the nastiest orc bastards are the ones that get to reproduce, any genetic markers for negative temprament are going to become dominant over time. But while I do believe inborn temprament exists, I also think it's a relatively small part of the picture. So while I might not volunteer to raise an orc myself, I think a good family could produce an orc that would be capable of moral thought and action.

So: individually, orcs are not evil per se. Practically speaking though, any you run into will be.


rewording edit

[superwizard]

But Faramondcan you really just classify orcs as beasts? I mean they seem to be somewhat intelligent creatures that have feelings. The goblins in The Hobbit to me are too organized to be considered as animals. And even when you say 'beasts' what do you mean by it? Who would you classify as a beats? Orcs I believe are too smart to simply be dismissed as animals. And that is not even mentioning Trolls who were said by Treebeard to be 'imitations of Ents'. I know some of Treebeards statements are false but he is the oldest of ents so this information should be correct.

[Faramond]

superwizard, you raise good points.

There are no easy answers when it comes to the orcs. If you really want an answer, you sort of have to fudge it a little bit. Either they are beasts, which is troublesome logically, or they seem to be born evil, which is troublesome morally. Or we can go with Axordil's suggestion of looking at the individual vs. the society. It may be that any orc who might choose to not be evil ends up dead pretty quickly.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

sw, the "orcs' as "beasts" comes directly from Tolkien himself. One way that he considered dealing with the "Orc problem" was to eliminate them having souls altogether. From the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring:

In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horse of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.

The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level but they still had no fëar.

[axordil]

I think JRRT was unhappy with the theological implications he raised by having thinking creatures who were, while perhaps not intrinscially evil, certainly irredeemable in any pragmatic sense. And he may have been unable or unwilling to open up the possibility of blaming "society" for a theological dead end. The HoME reference makes me think he's trying to weasel out of it, frankly. Throughout LOTR and The Hobbit, Orcs are clearly and consistently portrayed as conscious creatures in a way non-linguistic animals are not. The passage where Gorbag and Shagrat go on about finding some spot after the war where they can be on their own...if it is only echoic in nature, then so is human consciousness.

But what really hacks me off is that JRRT, a man who lived in words, is essentially asking us in the HoME passage to ignore them. I don't think it's his proudest moment.


Trolls, on the other hand...strike me as being made, not born. That they can become dumb stone, and that even the best of them are described as being merely "cunning" is for me a tip-off.

spelling edit

[superwizard]

That was one way thoughVoronwë_the_Faithful. He also considered making them imitations of orcs and humans. But V you say that Huan was also without feä and we see him essentially as good.He betrayed his master to save Beren didn't he? Why couldn't orcs for that matter? I agree with axordil Tolkien seems to have been trying to find some sort of loophole for orcs in HoME and I personally don't like it. I'm sorry but to me even if orcs had no feä neither did Huan and so I think that proves that even without a feä something can be evil or good.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm not saying anything (at least yet), sw. I just pointed out where the idea of Orcs as beasts came from.

[superwizard]

I'm not saying anything (at least yet), sw. I just pointed out where the idea of Orcs as beasts came from.

My mistake Its just that I really dislike the idea of orcs being simply beasts no smarter than donkeys.

Now goblins are cruel, wicked and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones.

That does not sound like an ordinary beast to me...

[axordil]

I think JRRT always thought of orcs as smarter than donkeys, sw.

He just got to a point where he was willing to say they could pass a Turing test and yet have no rational soul, a notion I find at the very least unsettling...

[Faramond]

An orc can't pass a Turing test. You have a blind conversation with a man, and another with an orc, and you'll sense the lack of "something" in the orc.

[Primula Baggins]

Wouldn't you sense the same lack in the conversation of a thuggish, uneducated, criminal human?

[Faramond]

No.

[Primula Baggins]

I guess I haven't talked to enough orcs yet.

[Sassafras]

No.

Are you quite sure?

[Faramond]

Yes.

[Primula Baggins]

Are you making a point about absolute judgments of right and wrong?

Or do you have a sore pinkie?

[Sassafras]

Yes.

Pffft. Well, I disagree (no suprise there).

Tolkien never solved the 'orc' problem. Ergo, my speculation is as valid as yours.