Fate and Free Will

Seeking knowledge in, of, and about Middle-earth.
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axordil
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Post by axordil »

yovargas wrote:
axordil wrote:GM: You see a castle in the distance.
Players: Eh, not another castle. We head into the woods.
GM: After many uneventful hours in the tangled paths of the forest, you emerge to see a castle before you.
Players: Jeez, fine, we drink our flying potions and head up into the clouds.
GM: When you pass through the clouds you encounter a great floating castle.
Players: OK then, we return to the ground, and dig a tunnel going the way we came with our Pick of Mighty Excavation.
GM: You emerge in the courtyard of a castle.
Players: Let's go play Mario Kart.

(I was never very good at pen & paper.........)
I do think that if video games had been available in the First Age, we'd be having a very different conversation. :D

There's a bit of reductio ad absurdum in the idea of the Music making the Elves automatons, too. Is Joeblodiel's choice of shoes on the morning of 4 Hrívë, 48 in there? Some seemingly small choices and events become important ("a chance meeting" between Thorin and Gandalf comes to mind) but some end up mattering not at all. Change them and the only thing that comes of it is a different wear pattern on the soles of two pairs of shoes.
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Post by Galin »

Earlier I asked about...
'According to the fable Elves and Men were the first of these intrusions, made indeed while the 'story' was still only a story and not 'realized'; they were not therefore in any sense conceived or made by the gods, the Valar, and were called the Eruhini or 'Children of God', and were for the Valar an incalculable element: that is they were rational creatures of free will in regard to God, of the same historical rank as the Valar, though of far smaller spiritual and intellectual power and status.'

JRRT, from letter 181, probably 1956
No one here responded so far (not that I expected anyone who thinks Elves have free will to find this problematic), but in Splintered Light (Splintered Light and Splintered Being, page 53) Verlyn Flieger writes:
'In a letter to a reviewer of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien declared that both races were "rational creatures of free will in regard to God" (letters 236). The key may lie in the phrase "in regard to God", suggesting that in the sub-created world God, Eru, who proposed the theme but had the Ainur make the music, is himself beyond and above it. This implies a kind of Boethian concept in which the mind of God encompasses any design perceivable by any of his creatures and is explicit in such statements by Eru to the Ainur, as "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my respite" (Silm 17)

'(...) This seems to make it clear that in Tolkien's cosmology, which encompasses both fate and free will, the mind of the Prime Mover extends beyond the Creation to leave room for what to earthbound perceivers may appear as exceptions to the rule. (...)'
OK, but what about in 'regard to God' here is key to the interpretation of the Elves not having free will in the same essential sense as Men have it?

It seems to me that free will is still free will -- in other words, according to Tolkien's statement both Children have it, and whatever free will holds (or means) for Men within the conception that the mind of God encompasses all potential -- shouldn't that meaning still essentially hold for Elves?

Or am I missing something about this explanation?
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Post by axordil »

Thinking about the wording in the Sil: the Music becomes fainter as the ages of the world roll on. I think perhaps there's an element of constraint at the beginning of things, before the coming of Men in particular, that unravels as the Firstborn's presence in Middle-earth dwindles.

I think the tone of the stories reflects this. The tales of the First Age have a fatalistic tone, in the broadest sense of the word: the Doom of the Noldor, the Prophecy of the North, Master of Doom by Doom Mastered...by the time you get to LOTR the shouted proclamations of fate have become whispers: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. After the passing of Sauron and the Rings, it's all free will, all the time.

On that last note, the activist presence of Ainur in ME probably has an effect on Free Will as well, whether it's Morgoth or Sauron or even the Istari. They're only one step removed from the Primum Mobile, as it were.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Galin, I would say, quoting from Verlyn's Tolkien Studies essay "The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth" that:
The trouble lies not with free will, but with fate. Readers who assume (and most do) that characters in Tolkien's invented world are free to choose, find the opposing notion that they are predestined hard to accept. And the idea that both principles are concurrently at work (and apparently at odds) is a concept even harder to encompass. It is, nevertheless, a concept integral to a mythology whose overarching scheme is that fate, conceived as kind of divinely inspired and celestially orchestrated music, governs the created world -- with one exception. of all Middle-earth's sentient species, the race of Men (including Hobbits) is the only group given the "virtue" to "shape their lives" beyond the scope of this music. In contradistinction, the otherwise generally similar race of Elves, (both races being the Children of [the godhead] Ilúvatar) is, together with the rest of Creation, ruled by fate.
Verlyn calls this contradiction Tolkien's "Green Sun." As readers of On Fairy Stories know, Tolkien described the element of a good fairy story in which the author makes a facially unbelievable element credible using the example of a green sun. Verlyn says that "Tolkien had the daring and freedom of imagination to envision a world where in both [free will and fate] are co-existent, simultaneously in operation and co-operation. So far as I am aware, this vision is unique in modern fantasy.

I think the answer to your question, Galin, is that the trouble indeed is not with free will but with fate. Both Elves and Men are, as you say (or rather, as Tolkien said), "rational creatures of free will in regard to God." The difference is that while both have free will, the exercise of that free will only has the power to shape their lives of Men, whereas the Elves are ruled by fate, no matter what choice they make. Otherwise, the statement that Men are the only ones not bound by the Music has no meaning.

In "Music and the Task" Verlyn doesn't address that statement from Letter 181, but she does address another comment that Tolkien made suggesting that both Elves and Men had free will:
I take the operation of free will in this instance to be along the lines of Fëanor's in saying ya or nay to Yavanna -- an internal process not affecting events but deeply influencing the inner nature of individuals involved in those events.
Verlyn notes that in the Athrabeth, Andreth claims that some believe that the purpose of Men was to heal the marring of Arda, and that in a passage in the linguistic work "Words Phrases & Passages in "the Lord of the Rings" Tolkien suggests that the purpose of both Elves and Men was the completion of Arda Healed, which was to be greater than Arda Unmarred. Verlyn suggests that "the purpose of the Children -- that is, both Elves and Men -- to complete the design must be twofold in it action, for otherwise there would be no necessity for two separate races. As I noted earlier in the thread, in an email that I had sent to Verlyn, I noted that there was an interesting passage in the Athrabeth commentary (Note 7) in which I think Tolkien describes very well how that two-fold action plays out in the end:
The Elves find their supersession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy in destroying it in the attempt to dominate it. They still believe that Eru's healing of all the griefs of Arda will come now by or through Men; but the Elves' part in the healing or redemption will be chiefly in the restoration of the love of Arda, to which their memory of the Past and understanding of what might have been will contribute. Arda they say will be destroyed by wicked Men (or the wickedness in Men); but healed through the goodness in Men. The wickedness, the domineering lovelessness, the Elves will offset. By the holiness of good men - their direct attachment to Eru, before and above all Eru's works - the Elves may be delivered from the last of their griefs: sadness; the sadness that must come even from the unselfish love of anything less than Eru.
I think that this two-fold process illustrates the internal reason for the differing interaction of fate and free will in the two races of the Children of Eru. But Verlyn notes that the result is a profound illustration of the chaos of the real world:
What emerges in Tolkien's depiction of Eä, the "World that Is," is a picture of the confusing state of affairs in the world that really "is," a state of affairs as it appears to us humans, an uncertain, unreliable, untidy, constantly swinging balance between fate and human effort, between the Music and the Task. Unlike philosophers past and present, Tolkien was not attempting to solve the puzzle, nor was he intending to show that one or the other principle governed the world and those within it. He was tyring to show the world the way he saw it -- as a place of hope and despair, cruelty and compassion. He saw it as a place where accidents happen, where plans go awry, where young men die in war and children lose their parents, where the right side can lose, where love is not always enough. But he also saw it as a place where human beings of good will and good intentions grope often blindly toward a more hopeful future that remains out of sight but not out of mind. His invented world deliberately included provisions for both fate and free will in order to reflect unfolding of events as they happen in and shape humanity's perceptions of the real world. Th whole elaborate enterprise was, as described in the quote from John Garth which forms my epigraph, "nothing less than an attempt to justify God's creation of an imperfect world filled with suffering, loss and grief."
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Galin »

I think the answer to your question, Galin, is that the trouble indeed is not with free will but with fate. Both Elves and Men are, as you say (or rather, as Tolkien said), "rational creatures of free will in regard to God." The difference is that while both have free will, the exercise of that free will only has the power to shape their lives of Men, whereas the Elves are ruled by fate, no matter what choice they make. Otherwise, the statement that Men are the only ones not bound by the Music has no meaning.
I suppose one could characterize this as Elves having 'free will' -- and thus Flieger's opinion would not necessarily be in discord with this statement from JRRT -- ok, but what is the point of suggesting one focus on the 'in regard to God' part?

To say that the phrase 'free will in regard to God' is key suggested to me that I need to consider the whole statement putting a sure focus on this phrase... for a certain understanding of what JRRT means by saying both Elves and Men have free will.

If this part is key what does it tell me about the free will of Elves and Men here... something that I might not get if I disregarded it, let's say.

:)

But maybe that wasn't her intent. Is this pointing to 'in regard to God' really more of a springboard that is 'key' for the next point about Eru?
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I'll have to go back and reread that section of Splintered Light when I have a chance, but I'll see this much. Perhaps it is a question of Verlyn's ideas developing from the time that she wrote Splintered Light (and then revised it), and when she wrote "Music and the Task." I may well email her at some point and ask her, as well. She is wonderfully receptive to such inquiries.

Galin, do you have Tolkien Studies, Volume VI? In addition to Verlyn's "Music and the Task" paper it also contains an essay by Tolkien (edited by the great Tolkien linguist Carl Hostetter -- Aelfwine to those of you have seen the spirited discussions about my book) called "Fate and Free Will." What is really interesting is that Verlyn relies in part on that essay in supporting her position, whereas as Carl (as I understand it) relies on it in supporting his opposite position.

There is also, as you may be aware, another essay in Tolkien Studies, Volume VII by Thomas Fornet-Ponse called “Strange and free — On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men" which is a direct response to "Music and the Task." Thomas makes some very excellent points (including an excellent discussion of Tolkien's expanded story about Míriel, which pleases me). Verlyn is, of course, one of the editors of Tolkien Studies and I admire her willingness to promote ideas that contradict her own.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Galin »

I do have TS volume VI Voronwë, but also, if I understand things correctly, Carl Hostetter's presentation in this book is not the same as his longer presentation on the subject of fate and free will given at a convention. I base part of this on the citation from Lingwe -- Musings of a Fish below.

I was told TS volume VII was sold out, or I think that was the reason... anyway there was some reason why it wasn't available and thus did not show up under my Christmas indoor pine tree this year.

I might have asked already, but anyone know if Carl Hostetter's longer version is available anywhere, as of today?
If the pieces by Verlyn Flieger and Carl Hostetter sound familiar, then you were either at Mythcon last year, or you read my follow-up discussion (or both). It’s nice to see both of these published, even if Carl was unable to provide the commentary he had hoped. I still have my fingers crossed that he will find the time to write it one of these days.
http://lingwe.blogspot.com/2009/05/tolk ... rizon.html
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Yeah, all that is included in TS VI by Carl is Tolkien's essay, which he edited. His "commentary" was presented at Mythcon 40, as was Verlyn's paper. Sadly, I was not able to attend that conference. So far as I am aware, it is not available anywhere, although he did post some of his thoughts at TORN, which I know you are aware of since you reposted some of that here.

Volume VII is available directly from West Virginia University Press. For reasons that were not easily understandable to me (and I suspect to the editors, as well), it was not made available on Amazon.

http://wvupressonline.com/journals/tolk ... s/volume_7
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Post by Galin »

Ah, maybe the Amazon detail was the problem... thanks Voronwë!

I'm beginning to think I made a wrong assumption with respect to V. Flieger's response (to the quote in question). So I might be missing something that isn't there!

:D
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