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Nice Master :(

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Warning: this is yet another thread about free will! :scarey:
Tolkien, in Letter 246, p. 330 wrote:For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II. 325 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing.', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense*) wasted.

*In the sense that 'pity' to be a true virtue must be directed to the good of its object. It is empty if it is exercised only to keep oneself 'clean', free from hate or the actual doing of injustice, though this is also a good motive.
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(I know it is in my sig pic, but I put here for posterity's sake. :roll:)

I agree with Tolkien that this is the most tragic moment of the LOTR (that's charitable of me, isn't it? :P). Why is it more tragic then the failures of Frodo, Boromir, Saruman or Denethor? Well, Boromir succumbed to the temptation of the Ring. Saruman and Denethor also, in addition to exposure to Sauron through the palantirs of Orthanc and Minas Tirith. And Frodo, of course, also succumbed to the Ring in the end, though the possibility of succeeding at that point was illusory. Sam’s failure, however, was all his own. The “chief hero” of the story (as Tolkien calls Sam in Letter 131, p. 161) fails at a critical point in the story not because of some external pressure beating down upon him but simply from his own lack of wisdom. From the same letter quoted before (back a page on p. 329):
Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable – except in his service to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt.
It was this flaw in his character that caused Sam’s failure. But – many of you are quick to enjoin – Sam’s character was given to him by Eru. Thus, like Fëanor’s more spectacular failure before him, Sam’s failure was not a result of free will at all, but simply part of Eru’s plan. And Tolkien himself suggests this, in an off-hand way. In the same letter (back to p. 330), he says “That is due of course to the ‘logic of the story’. Sam could hardly have acted differently.” He certainly seems to be implying here that Sam had no choice but to act in the way that he did in order for the “story” to proceed.

However, as there are always are, there are layers within layers. Gandalf (who must be considered at least to some extent as a “heavenly messenger”) tells Frodo (and us) in A Shadow of the Past that there is a chance of Gollum being “cured”. That suggests that one possible “reality” involved Gollum finding redemption. Tolkien even kindly shows us that alternate reality. Right after telling us that Sam could hardly have acted any differently, he describes what would have happened if Sam had acted differently:
If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But ‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
My friends, think about this. Tolkien says that the ending would have been different, and that is true to some extent, but the ultimately sought goal – the destruction of the Ring – would have been achieved. Indeed, it would have been achieved in a much “cleaner” fashion. Frodo need never have suffered the guilt of his own perceived failure, because he would have been saved from that last ultimate test. Gollum himself would have achieved at least a partial redemption. And there would have been no need for Eru to actively insert His finger into the story to tip Gollum into Mt. Doom, because Gollum would have found the means to freely choose to go into the fire. But for the servile arrogance of Samwise Gamgee.

But I see that I still have not answered my own question. Was Samwise’s failure one of free will, or one pre-determined by Eru? Was he doomed by his own nature – as given to him by Eru – to fail at that moment, or could he have transcended his own flaw at that critical moment? I keep going back to Gandalf’s words to Frodo: I have not much hope of Gollum being cured before he died, but there is a chance of it. As it turns out, that chance depended upon Sam’s ability to leap beyond his own flaw at that critical moment. There might not have been much of a hope of him doing so, but there was not ‘no hope’. Thus his failure must have been one of free will. Otherwise, Eru really is nothing more then a storyteller, deciding what will happened based on nothing more then "the logic of the story."
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Post by Impenitent »

I've no time at all! I'm STEALING time from my deadline to do this as quick as I can.
But – many of you are quick to enjoin – Sam’s character was given to him by Eru. Thus, like Fëanor’s more spectacular failure before him, Sam’s failure was not a result of free will at all, but simply part of Eru’s plan.
Um. No, I will not say that at all. I know is seems to fly against my own rationale re: Fëanor, but I do not consider that Sam was one of the principal instruments. Yes, I know he was for Tolkien's story, and quite heroic really, but I don't consider that Eru's daffodil was pointing at him. He was an accessory.

Why on earth do I say that? How can I justify it? Well, I can't, not in less than a thousand words and I don't have time for them.

I will simply say that Eru isn't Tolkien (from the perspective from which I read the story); and that Eru's primary instruments were few, as I see it, and Sam was not amongst them.

I know it's a senseless and frustrating point to leave on, but I must go! :(
My friends, think about this. Tolkien says that the ending would have been different, and that is true to some extent, but the ultimately sought goal – the destruction of the Ring – would have been achieved. Indeed, it would have been achieved in a much “cleaner” fashion. Frodo need never have suffered the guilt of his own perceived failure, because he would have been saved from that last ultimate test. Gollum himself would have achieved at least a partial redemption. And there would have been no need for Eru to actively insert His finger into the story to tip Gollum into Mt. Doom, because Gollum would have found the means to freely choose to go into the fire. But for the servile arrogance of Samwise Gamgee.

But I see that I still have not answered my own question. Was Samwise’s failure one of free will, or one pre-determined by Eru? Was he doomed by his own nature – as given to him by Eru – to fail at that moment, or could he have transcended his own flaw at that critical moment? I keep going back to Gandalf’s words to Frodo: I have not much hope of Gollum being cured before he died, but there is a chance of it.
I know Tolkien played out the possibility, but...I believe one reaches a point where one cannot turn back. The personal path is set - just as a rock cannot become a stream, Gollum - no matter the possibility for doing so that was dangled in front of us - could not be redeemed. We would like to think he could; Tolkien created a chimeral show to illustrate what MIGHT have happened, had redemption been possible, but I don't think it was.

Why?

Well...let's go back to Pharaoh and the plagues, shall we? :D The Bible states that, when Moses asked Pharaoh to let the Israelites to go free, 20 times that Pharaoh's heart was hardened. The first ten times - coinciding with the first five plagues - Pharaoh hardened his own heart and he refused to do so. He was stubborn, he was obdurate, he did it himself. The second ten times - coinciding with the last five plagues - GOD hardened his heart! Why? Because there comes a point where you are what you are, and there is no going back. At some point, having made your bed, you have to lie in it!

And this is the case with Gollum as I see it. He had gone so far along that path of corruption that he had become that thing which could not go back.

Tolkien's heartbreaking opening to redemption with Sam is a chimera. Just as Sam could not have acted differently due to who he was, so Gollum could not have made that leap. No, I believe he could not. He had become what he had become. That, to me, makes the tragedy so ultimately poignant.

Disappearing again now - back to the deadline! Please forgive this drive-by shooting.
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Post by Alatar »

Very briefly. I do not believe that Eru gave Sam his character any more than I believe God gave me mine. Sams character like any other was forged from his own nature (in which possibly Eru has a hand), his upbringing and the influence of his friends and family. Who's to say that his arrogance was innate or bred? The Gaffer is not above passing judgement on things he doesn't understand. Why would Sam be any different? Sam is a working class man used to dealing with his "betters". It's often been noted that in the same situation in real life there is a heirarchy among the working class that, while not recorded anywhere is understood by all. Sam has very much "made the grade" as Frodo's personal manservant and is justifiably proud of his accomplishment. That pride extends to thinking that he sometimes knows bettr than his master, but he hides it in a sort of false justification. He claims that he knows better because his master is "too good" to see that Gollum can't change. It's a sort of reverse psychology that allows him to second guess Frodo while still pretending to himself that he's serving him truly. That strikes me as very much a product of his upbringing with the Gaffer and his status among his peers, rather than any innate flaw.

Which makes me wonder, if we knew more about Fëanor, his family and friends and his childhood, would we be less likely to make the assumption that his flaws were innate? What we know of Fëanor is hastily sketched in a couple of exposition heavy chapters, whereas we get a keen insight into what makes Sam tick over the length of three volumes of Lord of the Rings.

The tragedy of this scene is that is could so easily have been otherwise. Sam is flawed, through his own pride and failings. His own! If they were foisted upon him by a puppet master there's no tragedy, just a bunch of puppets playing out a story.

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Thanks for the responses, Imp and Al! I'll have to think about what you both say, and get back to you. Hopefully some others will share their thoughts as well.
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Post by Cerin »

Our character may be given in part. That is, we may be given innate tendencies and aspects of personality, but free will must mean that we have a choice as to how we act on those tendencies.

If Sam had the flaw of pride that allowed his devotion to become possessive, still it is understandable that that possessiveness (which is also born of love) would have blinded him to Gollum's state of being at that moment. Did the possibility exist, that he would have reacted compassionately rather than defensively? I think abstractly the possibility existed, but practically it did not. Not because of the character given Sam, but because of the desperate circumstances they found themselves in. They are physically and emotionally strained, and Sam is worried about Frodo. I think his reaction was natural (which does not make it any less tragic, perhaps more so).

I don't think Eru's plans are so minute as to predict every outcome. There was a possibility for Gollum's redemption, but I don't see this moment as being contingent on an exercise of free will. Had Sam noticed the change in Gollum's tone and aspect and then chosen to still react harshly out of prideful spite and possessiveness, that would have been an exercise of free will determining the outcome of the incident.

I agree with Imp that the requirements of 'the logic of the story' do not equate to Eru's plan within the story (that Tolkien isn't Eru).
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Post by Sassafras »

A fascinating topic, Voronwë!

Everything Imp said.

There is a difference, or at least I perceive there to be a difference, in the attributes of fate/free will Tolkien gave to Elves and Men (and I include hobbits in the Men catagory). Because the Quendi are bound to the time of Arda, they are confined to the music in ways that Men are not. Even though individual volition occurs, nevertheless, Elves are set upon their path by Eru, by the constraints of the third theme ... there could never be an alternative to the Long Defeat. And because Melkor strove to raise his voice and his cacaphony was taken and blended into a new theme ... the Marring has already occured even before the first elf awoke on the shores of Cuiviénen.

To Men, on the other hand, (also tainted by Melkor's notes) a more significant freedom of will is given. Men (and hobbits) truly have the opportunity to make their own destinies.

Sam failed to recognize the change in Gollum entirely by himself. Unlike Fëanor, Sam's path was never pre-determined ... he was shaped both by birth and the events that played out .

Eru might nudge now and again as He did when Bilbo found the Ring or when it came to Frodo ... but by and large, hobbits make their own choices (still causal, I must add, although they have the hypothetical freedom to choose differently)

I hope that makes sense.



:D
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"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

And so did Fingon not act with free will when he tried to rescue Maehdros, as seen in your fantastic sig pic Was he just acting as a puppet of Eru?

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(For posterity's sake)

I simply can't accept that.
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Post by Sassafras »

Ach! Did you not read.... Even though individual volition occurs, nevertheless, Elves are set upon their path by Eru, by the constraints of the third theme ... there could never be an alternative to the Long Defeat.?

I'm not making myself clear, obviously.

I'll come back later and try to clarify what I mean. But briefly, what I do NOT mean, and what I did NOT say, is that each and every individual thought and act is pre-determined. It is the overarching path of the Elves, as a culture, as a people, as a racial entity, that I believe is fated. The Long Defeat is set within the music. There is no other possible outcome.
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Don't you hate when people don't read what you say. :P
It is the overarching path of the Elves, as a culture, as a people, as a racial entity, that I believe is fated.
But Men (and Hobbits) are part of that same Tale. For instance, I believe that it was fated that the Ring would be destroyed. But the path to that event could have taken several different turns, one of which would have involved Sam finding the wisdom to overcome his pride and not interfere with Gollum's (at least partial) redemption. Similarly, while I agree with you that "the long defeat" is fated, I don't agree that, for instance, Fëanor was fated to do the evil things that he did that helped lead to "the long defeat".

I also wanted to say a few words about the title of this thread, in case the irony is lost on anyone. The "nice master" refers to the new love that is borne in Gollum's heart for Frodo, which could have achieved the "cure" that Gandalf speaks of. But it also could refer to Sam's attitude about Frodo, both his love for his master, and his disdain at what he considered his master's fatal weakness -- the two things that led to his failure.
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Post by Sassafras »

Voronwë wrote:
Don't you hate when people don't read what you say?

:x :x :x


and then he said:
But Men (and Hobbits) are part of that same Tale.
Yes. Yet to my perception, there is a difference ... and this is it. Men and, by extension, hobbits are not bound to the circles of the world. When they die it can be escaped. Elves are bound. They cannot escape the confines of Arda and, as such, are consequently
far more intimately tied to Arda's history in ways that the second children, (the dwarves also), I suspect, are not.

It seems to me that Tolkien's creations reflect his own complex of unanswered questions with their dualities of light/dark, faith/ non-faith, fate/free will.

Which well might be one of the reasons his work resonates to such an extent with so many of us. We are all of us, all, continually dealing with, and trying to puzzle out, the polarities of life.

Btw, I agree with you that the Ring was meant to be destroyed ... but was it possible for Gollum to be saved had Sam had a change of heart? It's almost a moot point I think. Like Imp, I believe (and I argued this in the Gollum thread on TORC) that Gollum had reached the point of no return ... that by the time of 'nice Master' his path was set: the Ring exerted a virtual strangle-hold on him .... despite Tolkien's alternate hypothetical, I don't see how his redemption is even the slightest possiblity.

Unless we're talking about miracles. :D
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It depends on what you mean by "saved". I agree that he was doomed to be destroyed with the Ring. But I think he could have been saved in the sense of "redeemed" before he died. Otherwise, it would make no sense for Gandalf to say that there was a chance that he could be cured "before he dies." What significance that has, if any, is hard to say, since the fate of men (and presumably hobbits) after they leave the circles of the world is unknown. But I would presume that there is some significance, otherwise Tolkien would not have put those words in Gandalf's mouth. And given Tolkien's spiritual backgroung, its not hard to make some kind of guess as to what significance it might have.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

But Tolkien allowed for miracles, didn't he?

Certainly it would always have been "possible" for Gollum to be redeemed, if Eru intervened. I have a terrible problem with the idea of "irredeemably evil" people—it connects, for me, to the question Mr. Prim liked to ask his fundamentalist Sunday School teachers: "Can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it?"

(Mr. Prim used to get in a lot of trouble in Sunday School.)

To say that Gollum is irredeemable is saying that there is evil that Eru cannot overcome. This is not a view Tolkien would have held; to a Christian, in fact, it's literally heresy.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Impenitent »

... to a Christian, in fact, it's literally heresy.
Yes, I know. :)

But if we recall Tolkien's conceit that this world mythically preceded ours, that this is a pre-biblical world - we are dealing with an old testament Eru who parallels the biblical God who dealt with Pharaoh in the way described above.

Sometimes you have to lie in the bed you made.

Perhaps I read it from a black perspective; but I do see Gollum's situation in that way.
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Post by truehobbit »

Lovely thread - I should really re-read before posting, but well... ;)

I'd like to comment on some other things before going into the free will question.
My friends, think about this. Tolkien says that the ending would have been different, and that is true to some extent, but the ultimately sought goal – the destruction of the Ring – would have been achieved. Indeed, it would have been achieved in a much “cleaner” fashion. Frodo need never have suffered the guilt of his own perceived failure, because he would have been saved from that last ultimate test. Gollum himself would have achieved at least a partial redemption. And there would have been no need for Eru to actively insert His finger into the story to tip Gollum into Mt. Doom, because Gollum would have found the means to freely choose to go into the fire. But for the servile arrogance of Samwise Gamgee.
Hmmh, would this ending really be "cleaner"?

It sounds to me like what Tolkien describes in his alternative ending is suicide out of despair on Gollum's part! That's the opposite of redemption!

And did Frodo really suffer from guilt? I probably have just forgotten the relevant text again, but from how I remember it spontaneously, especially right after the destruction of the ring, there's no guilt at all - he knows he's done all he could and nothing more could have been asked of him. (The guilt-part is probably later in the text, then. :) )

And if Eru had not intervened, the whole point of the story would have been overthrown!
Because, IMO, that point is that in all our doings our own strength is insufficient - all we can do is to live in such a way as to merit the final merciful intervention of Eru.

So, yes, the story would have been changed if Sam had acted differently - but the alternate version you describe seems to be a loss for Middle-Earth, even if it would have made a greater hero of Sam.

(More after I've actually had a look at the passage! ;) :) )
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Well, saying the God of the Old Testament was a different God is yet another Christian heresy. :P

I haven't read as much as the rest of you all, obviously, but it would startle me to think that Tolkien meant anything by "Eru" but "God," or that he would say that the God of any time, including his mythical one, is different from the God of any other. (Yes, God is portrayed very differently in the Old and New Testaments, but I was taught that it was the same God interacting with a culture in the way that worked for that culture—and I also believe, for myself, that we see the Old Testament God through the cultural filters of the Old Testament writers.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Impenitent »

Same God, different perspectives, I suspect. :)

I still stand by my interpretation; that despite the glimpse of hope that redemption may yet have been possible, it was an illusion. I don't believe Gollum could have redeemed himself; I don't think he could have been redeemed by another without breaking the form of the story, either.

The idea that one can fall to the utter depths of corruption and then be cleansed completely is a christian ideal but, much like a messianic age of goodness and perfection, it cannot happen in this world we live in. This is a fallen world, just as is Tolkien's.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

So much to respond to, and not enough time. I did want to take a moment to clear one thing up.
truehobbit wrote:Hmmh, would this ending really be "cleaner"?

It sounds to me like what Tolkien describes in his alternative ending is suicide out of despair on Gollum's part! That's the opposite of redemption!
hobby, here is the rest of the quote that I didn't post (for fear that I was doing too much quoting), which makes it clear that that was not Tolkien's intention. After the part that I quoted before where he says that Gollum would have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss for Frodo's sake, the next paragraph begins:
I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite; the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himslef together -- and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo
So it is clearly not just "suicide out of despair" that he is talking about.

As for Frodo suffering from guilt, from the same letter:
He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt; he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die ver soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arewen was the first to observve the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. Slowly he hades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' it was not only nighmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he [had] done as a broken failure.
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Post by IdylleSeethes »

Eru creates and provides each creation with a pattern of thinking. The creations interact with each other and their environment which modifies the subsequent behavior of each. This provides both individuality and stereotyped behaviors for each creation, within the limits of their experience. Think of the music of the spheres and the possibilities for harmony, order, and chaos. So, even starting with a few or even one pattern an almost infinite amount of variability is possible, but only in discrete steps away from the past. Somewhere in this, the individual develops preferences. At this point the individual is expressing their will, within the range of their experience.

I don’t think it is correct to say Eru has a plan. Eru has created a world for which there are possibilities and although patterns of behavior are discernible, they are not predictable beyond the near term, more statistically than individually.

Tolkien, of course, determines the choices in LOTR, but I think it is within the framework of free will. His Catholicism doesn’t allow for predestination. His characters have strengths that have consequent weaknesses. Tolkien exploits these to construct his story. We know the choices Tolkien made, but it is precisely because we can discuss alternative choices, as being realistic for a character, that Tolkien succeeds in showing how free will plays a role in our lives. Tolkien would be a failure if the range of freedom a character possessed precluded alternatives. The curiosity is that he gives us an irresistible force in the form of the Ring. The Ring sets a limit on free will. It overpowers Bilbo, Frodo, and finally Gollum. Others fall prey to the idea of the Ring and the anticipation of the power resulting from possessing it, like Boromir. These are 2 different effects.

Tolkien presents us with a series of failures. He repeats over and over the very Christian message that we can succeed in spite of our inevitable failures. There are so many disappointments; Bilbo’s repeated inability to free himself of the Ring; Aragorn’s failure to protect Frodo; Gandalf’s failure to lead the Fellowship, a sign that all of Eru’s creations have limitations; the disbanding of the Fellowship; Boromir’s desire for the Ring.

It is helpful to contrast the types and severity of weakness. Frodo’s failure is absolute. Boromir’s is of noble intent. There are several between these 2 ends of the spectrum. For Aragorn’s failure to lead, when was the correct moment for him to take his rightful place, if ever? Success depends on these failures, like Éowyn’s failure to follow her father’s wish leading to the downfall of the Wiki. For all, there is redemption, but to be redeemed you must first fail, and in the Christian view we are crippled from the beginning with original sin, which gives us all a chance to be redeemed.

Tolkien depends on Sam to be Frodo’s staunch support. As Alatar says, Sam is a working man. No magic, complicated backgrounds, or clever diversions are allowed. Sam must remain steadfast and that is the path to his weakness. Sam’s world is simple and polar. To Sam, Gollum is evil, not just someone who has done bad things, and is therefore irredeemable. Tolkien depends on Gollum’s weakness to destroy the Ring, so while he can tease us with the possibility of Gollum’s redemption, he cannot allow it. It helps that this is done through the mechanism of the irresistible force of the Ring.

How do we reconcile the power of the Ring with free will? All three of the affected characters suffer from long exposure to the Ring, each to a degree dependent upon the strength of their will. I have only been able to reconcile this by using the Catholic concept of the “occasion of sin”. This holds that it is wrong, even a sin itself, to place yourself in a situation that encourages sin. The idea is that we are all weak and the continued exposure will overcome our will. Even the indirect exposure through the confessional is considered an institutional weakness that exposes the clergy to sin at a level that must be countered. I think that it is this kind of evil with which Tolkien imbued the Ring.
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Faramond
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Post by Faramond »

To completely embrace free will, one must act according to the principle that redemption is possible for anyone.

It is easiest and most common to think of free will in terms of the paths we take through life. If we are determined by God or fate, then the path could only be what it is. If we possess free will, then the path passes many forks, and it could have been very different.

What does this mean, that it could have been different? This is a tricky concept. It is difficult to discuss what could have been, and no resolution is possible when there is disagreement. The "could have been", whatever it is, simply isn't real.

I believe a better way to approach free will is not through the "might have beens", but through what a path through life reveals about the one on that path.

Free will is the belief that you cannot know the path of others. You may suspect the path of others, and you may fear the likely path of others, but you do not KNOW the path of others.

Sam does not embrace free will when he sees Gollum pawing at his master. Sam knows the path of Gollum. He knows it, and he makes sure Gollum follows that path. But there is more, something even deeper, I think. Sam's failure is more than him thinking he knows what Gollum's future path will be like. It is also him thinking that he knows where Gollum's path has gone. But he does not understand Gollum. It is not a question of excusing what Gollum has done, or even of forgiving him, necessarily. I can't quite explain it, except to say that later on Sam reverses this particular part of his failure.

And Frodo, poor Frodo, he looks at himself, and the path he took, and he knows it as well. Frodo's true failure is not his claim of the Ring at the edge of the fire. Frodo's tragic failure is see his own path as a path of failure. I think this is the most tragic part of LOTR, so I disagree with Tolkien here.

Forgiveness is not possible without embracing free will. I must disagree with Impenitent: I believe the possibility of redemption can never be an illusion. What may be an illusion is the sort of redemption we would like to see. A specific hope, for a specific event, is all too often unrealistic. The tragedy then is to give up all hopes, all kinds of hopes. Only God can truly know what redemption is.

Is Sam's failure one of free will, or is it pre-determined? The way I have defined free will and explored it in this post makes this question meaningless. Sam's path is what it is. Perhaps it could have been something else, but we can never know.

Here is the question that bothers me: Does Sam know that he failed? I don't think he ever fully knows. But the answer, eventually, is a partial yes. Sam does leap beyond his own character flaw, at a later critical moment, when for the first time he leaps beyond what he thought he knew of Gollum's path. Sam lets Gollum go on the slopes of Mount Doom, and at this moment Sam is willing to say that he does not know all there is to know of Gollum. Free will is a partnership between a person and God, and here Sam, whether he knows it or not, is working in partnership with Eru.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Great post, Faramond! :) I really love this:
Free will is a partnership between a person and God, and here Sam, whether he knows it or not, is working in partnership with Eru.
Yes, Sam does eventually transcend his own character flaw, and shows Mercy to Gollum. As Tolkien points out (I'm not going to quote the letter yet again -- look it up if you want to :P) it is too late to save Gollum; his moment of possible redemption has come and gone. But it is not too late to save the quest. If Sam had not let Gollum go at that moment on the slopes of Mt. Doom, then the quest would have failed at the end, because Gollum would not have been there to be the instrument of "fate" that allows the quest to succeed, despite Frodo's inevitable failure at the end.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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