Gollum and the Orcs

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But then there`s Grishnákh and Gorbag and Shagrat. Let`s face it, these three exhibit clearly defined independent thought and purpose. Tolkien presents them with the ability to think mutinously towards the Dark Lord and to act in their own self-interest. They just don`t fit any of the rationales for the fundamental nature of Orcs that I`ve ever come across, including Tolkien`s own.

Tolkien does address this in the Myth's Transformed texts. He states:

As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel agaisnt him, or criticize him.

But later in the same text, he provides the following response:

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them.

Later in the same essay, however, Tolkien reiterates the belief that the origin of the Orcs was from corrupted Elves. Christopher points out that this seems to contradict the statement that the Orcs were mere beasts. However, the two statements are consistent within the context of my theory. They started out as sentient beings, but they became mere beasts.

I`ve never really understood why Tolkien didn`t just have Melkor create the Orcs in exactly the same manner as Aulë created the Dwarves. It`s such a perfect set-up. Eru lifted the Dwarves into the higher ranks of free-willed, sentient beings because of Aulë`s truly good (if misguided) intentions, his love and compassion for the beings he had created, and his remorse at overstepping his mandate as one of the Valar. Of course none of those criteria would apply to Melkor, so the mindless, soulless creatures known as Orcs could exist without the moral and logical conundrum.

In fact, that is exactly what Tolkien DID do (as I pointed out earlier), but he then replaced that original story was the story of the Orcs being corrupted Elves and/or Men. And I think he was right to do so. I think creating beings that so closely mirrored the Children of Eru (even without being free-willed, sentient beings) was beyond Melkor's abilities by the time the Orcs came into being. I think that he had already spent so much of his original capacities in hatred and spite and domination of other spirits and the very substance of Arda itself that his creative abilities were far below that of Aulë. The concept of him corrupting beings made by Eru to such extent that they no longer had the same fundamental nature as the original beings, having become mere hröar with no fëar of their own, strikes me as much more consistent with the Morgoth that Melkor had already become.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But then there`s Grishnákh and Gorbag and Shagrat. Let`s face it, these three exhibit clearly defined independent thought and purpose. Tolkien presents them with the ability to think mutinously towards the Dark Lord and to act in their own self-interest. They just don`t fit any of the rationales for the fundamental nature of Orcs that I`ve ever come across, including Tolkien`s own.

Tolkien does address this in the Myth's Transformed texts. He states:

As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel agaisnt him, or criticize him.

But later in the same text, he provides the following response:

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them.

Later in the same essay, however, Tolkien reiterates the belief that the origin of the Orcs was from corrupted Elves. Christopher points out that this seems to contradict the statement that the Orcs were mere beasts. However, the two statements are consistent within the context of my theory. They started out as sentient beings, but they became mere beasts.

I`ve never really understood why Tolkien didn`t just have Melkor create the Orcs in exactly the same manner as Aulë created the Dwarves. It`s such a perfect set-up. Eru lifted the Dwarves into the higher ranks of free-willed, sentient beings because of Aulë`s truly good (if misguided) intentions, his love and compassion for the beings he had created, and his remorse at overstepping his mandate as one of the Valar. Of course none of those criteria would apply to Melkor, so the mindless, soulless creatures known as Orcs could exist without the moral and logical conundrum.

In fact, that is exactly what Tolkien DID do (as I pointed out earlier), but he then replaced that original story was the story of the Orcs being corrupted Elves and/or Men. And I think he was right to do so. I think creating beings that so closely mirrored the Children of Eru (even without being free-willed, sentient beings) was beyond Melkor's abilities by the time the Orcs came into being. I think that he had already spent so much of his original capacities in hatred and spite and domination of other spirits and the very substance of Arda itself that his creative abilities were far below that of Aulë. The concept of him corrupting beings made by Eru to such extent that they no longer had the same fundamental nature as the original beings, having become mere hröar with no fëar of their own, strikes me as much more consistent with the Morgoth that Melkor had already become.

[solicitr]

Could we not though examine the option of hideously corrupted fear?

Tolkien himself observed that some Elvish fear, corrupted in some manner, might refuse the summons to Mandos- he then goes on to discuss Sauron and necromancy, ansd the possibility of possession.

Could we not (in a fanficcy way, I acknowledge) consider that Orcs (using the Elf-origin version) did in fact reincarnate? Húrin boasts to Morgoth that he cannot pursue Men 'beyond the Circles of the World'- but Elves can never leave the Circles, and one would presume that during the existence of Utumno and Agband those Avari or even some very corrupted Eldar (think Eöl, but worse) would not only refuse Mandos but be instead drawn to Udûn....

This would fit with Shippey's very cogent observation that Orcs, as we see them in the LR, *do* have a sense of etrhics or morality- but seem incapable of paying it more than lip service.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

soli, I would say that that is the generally accepted view, would you not? I've not seen anyone else advance the hröar with no fëar theory.

[solicitr]

But how many have suggested that Orcs re-incarnate?

[Athrabeth]

Hmmmmm. Once again I'm reminded how much I dislike Myths Transformed.

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them.

Well, it was a good try, but I ain't buyin' it.

Later in the same essay, however, Tolkien reiterates the belief that the origin of the Orcs was from corrupted Elves. Christopher points out that this seems to contradict the statement that the Orcs were mere beasts. However, the two statements are consistent within the context of my theory. They started out as sentient beings, but they became mere beasts.

Grishnákh, Gorbag, Shagrat et al are simply not portrayed as "mere beasts". Nobody, not even Tolkien himself, will convince me that the conversation that Sam overhears in Cirith Ungol is somehow a "recording" that Melkor programmed to start playing in those specific creatures at that specific moment and under those specific circumstances. Sheesh!

If Tolkien had just stuck to the broad, remote, "mass" rendering of Orcs that we see in the Sil as well as in the great battles of LOTR, then I probably could accept these theories. But he didn't. He chose to get "up close and personal" with a few of them, which made for some great story-telling but dubious (at best) consistency within the construct of his own created world.

For me, trying to make sense out of the whole business just isn't worth it. I'm quite content to accept the fact that Tolkien created a world of such structural complexity over such a long period of time that inconsistencies are inevitable. Dwelling too long on "the question of Orcs", to borrow a phrase from vison, makes my head want to explode.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hmmmmm. Once again I'm reminded how much I dislike Myths Transformed.

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them.

Well, it was a good try, but I ain't buyin' it.

How about this one, from a different Myths Transformed text:

The orks, it is true, sometimes appear to have been reduced
to a condition very similar, though there remains actually a
profound difference. Those orks who dwelt long under the
immediate attention of his will - as garrisons of his strongholds
or elements of armies trained for special purposes in his
war-designs - would act like herds, obeying instantly, as if with
one will, his commands even if ordered to sacrifice their lives in
his service. And as was seen when Morgoth was at last
overthrown and cast out, those orks that had been so absorbed
scattered helplessly, without purpose either to flee or to fight,
and soon died or slew themselves.

Other originally independent creatures, and Men among
them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), could also be reduced to
a like condition. But 'puppets', with no independent life or will,
would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will
of their maker was brought to nothing. In any case the number
of orks that were thus 'absorbed' was always only a small part of their total.
To hold them in absolute servitude required a
great expense of will. Morgoth though in origin possessed of
vast power was finite; and it was this expenditure upon the
orks, and still more upon the other far more formidable
creatures in his service, that in the event so dissipated his powers
of mind that Morgoth's overthrow became possible. Thus the
greater part of the orks, though under his orders and the dark
shadow of their fear of him, were only intermittently objects of
his immediate thought and concern, and while that was re-
moved they relapsed into independence and became conscious
of their hatred of him and his tyranny. Then they might neglect
his orders, or engage in [the text cuts off here]

Does this text better incorporate the differing concepts of the Orcs being slaves to Morgoth/Sauron's will, but also sometimes acting independently?

[Athrabeth]

<smiley representation of my head exploding>



Myths Transformed always makes me cranky. Very, very cranky.

I quite enjoy reading Tolkien's musings about the world he created in his Letters. I like the honesty of the man, and how he can admit to himself and others that there were indeed inconsistencies and flaws and omissions in LOTR, or that he had changed (or perhaps more precisely, evolved) his own views on some aspects of the text. But to me, Myths Transformed reads more like almost apologetic second-guessings of his own ideas and constructs, even the most profoundly beautiful and symbolically important, like the Two Trees of Valinor.

There are BIG gaps and inconsistencies in the histories of the Orcs. So be it. I can live with them. I can love LOTR just as fiercely being fully cognizant that they're there as I did before I even started to ponder the Orcs' place in Tolkien's moral universe (heck, I didn't even really consider that there was such a thing until Jny started that wonderful discussion a few years back at TORC ). I think that rather than all the acrobatics in logic, Tolkien should have just put this one on Eru's shoulders, and classified it as one of the inexplicable mysteries that sprang from the unfathomable mind of the Creator.

[vison]

Athrabeth, I agree with you. I can accept inconsistencies, I can accept misty uncertainties, but I can't accept convoluted and contorted mental gymnastics that try to organize the Orcs into a Christian universe - which is, IMHO, what Tolkien was up to in later years.

I'm never going to love the Orcs, either as characters or as a concept. I let them slip by me into the shadows, as much as possible.