Why the Eagles Didn't Deliver Frodo to Mt Doom

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Why the Eagles Didn't Deliver Frodo to Mt Doom

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I first posted this thought elsewhere, but I wanted to post it here as well.

One of the most consistent criticisms of The Lord of the Rings is the question of why Tolkien didn't just have the Eagles deliver Frodo to Mt. Doom and be done with it. The obvious answer is that there would be no story worth telling if he had done that, but that isn't really a very satisfying answer within the story. The Tolkien scholar David Bratman recently responded on his blog to an inquiry about this question in this way:
Your question is one that's often discussed on Tolkien bull-session bulletin boards (which I don't read), but it's not been dealt with at any length by Tolkien scholars, because it's not really a very important question.

The real answer, that is to the question "Why didn't Tolkien write it that way?" you already have - because there would be no story. That's no cop-out but a simple fact. This is fiction, remember, and the reader has to accept the set-up. There's more to it than that, though. Intentionally or not, LOTR is a story of moral perseverance against the odds. Constantly in the story, Frodo and the other heroes succeed because they have put forth their supreme effort. If the job were too easy, they wouldn't succeed. For instance, had Frodo not been brought to extremity in the wilderness and come, through that and the long burden of carrying the Ring, to understand Gollum's suffering, he would not have decided to spare Gollum. Merry and Pippin could never have put the Shire ruffians to flight had they not been tempered in Fangorn, Rohan, and Gondor. This may sound like another cop-out, but it's actually a key to the story. Gandalf indicates in a couple of places that the quest serves a purpose in the hobbits' own moral development: when he tells Frodo "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker," and when he assures the hobbits near the end that they can settle the Shire's affairs: "That is what you have been trained for." The easy solution to the Ring, one might think, is to have an Eagle fly it to Mount Doom, but we already have solutions such as sending it away or actually using it that are easy, simple - and wrong.

But you want an internal, continuity-based answer. There is none, actually. Tempting as it is to consider Middle-earth a real place, there are many holes in its history that the author never bothered, or never figured out how, to fill. (Could an orc repent, and what would happen if it did? is the biggest; Tolkien spent quite some time in later years scratching his head over that one.) I can make a couple of comments on this question, though.

1) Eagles really aren't a taxi service. They're proud, independent birds, and while they may grant favors, you can't just call on them to solve all your problems.

2) Eagles are also wild, dangerous, and serve no-one but themselves. I wouldn't let one anywhere near the One Ring once it's been rendered "radioactive" so to speak by Sauron's active searching.

3) The Fellowship's only hope for success is to come in to Mordor underneath Sauron's radar, so to speak. Obscurity and stealth are their bywords. A Giant Eagle of the Misty Mountains flying directly towards Mount Doom is going to be noticed. The rescue from Mount Doom is possible only because by that time Sauron and the Nazgûl are otherwise occupied.
I mostly like David's answer, particularly the point about moral perseverance. And his third item about stealth has a certain degree of truth to it. But it still isn't a very satisfying answer within the story. But there is one point that he made that I flatly disagree with, which actually presented to me what I find to be a much more satisfying answer.

Bratman says "Eagles are also wild, dangerous, and serve no-one but themselves." I think that is true of the Eagles of The Hobbit, but it isn't true of the Eagles of LOTR. In The Silmarillion, it is made explicitly clear that the Eagles are servants of Manwë. And, though Chrisopher Tolkien mistakenly obscures this fact, the Eages of LOTR (particularly Gwaihir and Lhandroval) are the same Eagles as the Eagles of the Silmarillion. In the chapter on Beren and Lúthien, the description of Thorondor and his vassals soaring high above Morgoth’s realm replaces a statement that Thorondor was the leader of the eagles, and specifying that his “mightiest vassals” were Lhandroval and Gwaihir. Christopher explains that this change was made to avoid confusion with the passage in The Return of the King describing Gwaihir and Landroval as the “mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young.” (LOTR, 948.) He points out that at the time he did not understand that Gwaihir’s name in this passage was actually changed from “Gwaewar” in 1951 in order to bring it into accord with The Lord of the Rings and that this change should not have been made. (See The Lost Road, 301.)

So the Eagles in LOTR are still servants of Manwë (which explains in part why Gwaihir is willing to follow Galadriel's instruction to go and find Gandalf and bring him to Lothlórien). But it is well known that the Valar were unwilling to interfere too closely with the affairs of Middle-earth, after the disaster that their bringing the Elves to Valinor caused, and the removal of the Undying Lands from the Circles of the Earth at the Fall of Númenor. Even when they sent the Istari, they severely limited what powers those Maia could use. So I think the "true" answer to the old question of why the Eagles couldn't just carry Frodo to the Cracks of Doom is that doing so would have violated the Valar's prohibition against interfering too closely with the affairs of Middle-earth.
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Post by Erunáme »

Really I think point three is enough of an explanation. Once Sauron saw the Eagle flying in, all he has to do is unleash the Ringwraiths on their steeds to prevent the Eagle from reaching Mount Doom. Who knows what would happen in an open fight like that? I'd say it would be fairly probable that the Ring would be captured by Sauron.
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Post by Crucifer »

Yes, the third one seems the most plausible.

The whole point of there being a fellowship of the ring, and not a great bug army of the ring is because the council knew a subtle approach was needed. A flock of giant birds flying to Mordor would almost certainly make Sauron suspicious. They could go and get him afterwards because Sauron no longer had any power. He went with the ring, and didn't the Nazgûl perish then too? There was no more danger a) that the eagles would die because of Nazgûl, and b) that Souron would get the ring because of them.
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Post by vison »

The story is as the story is. That's the way it WENT.

We could make the same kinds of criticisms of events in our "real" world. Why did Alexander ignore his doctor's advice and eat that chicken and drink that wine? Why didn't someone assassinate Hitler in 1938? Why didn't Henry VII give money to Christopher Columbus? That sort of thing. Things went the way they went.

Tolkien wrote a History, remember? If you look at it that way, the "inconsistencies" just fall into place like they do in our world.
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Post by ArathornJax »

Perhaps a few other points not Tolkien related and some that are. Looking at migratory eagles like the Bald Eagle it is known that prior to their migrations they tend to eat more food (load up) if the food is available. Perhaps that is why Gwaihir tells Gandalf that he can carry him many leagues, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings, not burdens." Thus Gwaihir was not prepared to carry Gandalf far in terms of his caloric uptake or stores.

Weather plays a huge role in how far an eagle can fly in a day. Eagles use their wings to gain altitude and then soar using uplifts and down currents of the winds. The storm over Caradhras also would probably have stopped the eagles from flying as well. Boromir, Gimli and Gandalf have a discussion about the weather at the Redhorn. Boromir states that " 'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy?' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. he has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
"His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf."
Sauron's ability to control the weather would also have stopped an aerial attack by the eagles long before they go there.

The distance from Rivendell to Mt. Doom is roughly 1200 miles (best estimate) and no eagle could fly that in one day, even if they did not need to stop to restore lose caloric stores in their bodies. A bald eagle can fly around 75 to 125 miles a day during migration, so a much larger eagle of Middle Earth could probably do 200 to 250 a day before stopping (and with no interference from Sauron)? That is still a 5 to 6 day journey for the eagles and I think Sauron would notice them long before they got near Mt. Doom, and have reacted to it.

I also agree with Voronwë that the eagles in LOTR are messengers of the Valar and of Manwë and as such, only mingle when they have to.

Finally it is to Tolkien's Letters that I look for his insight. Speaking of Zimmerman's use of eagles in the proposed 1957 script Tolkien states:
"4. Here we meet the first intrusion of the Eagles. I think they are a major mistake of Z, and without warrant.
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine.' I have used them sparingly and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness."

Later, "At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced. I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale. 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed."

Earlier Tolkien said on Z's script that " and he has made no serous attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately; the journey of the Ringbearers."
Letter 210
The bottom line from letters is Tolkien did not want a flight of Eagle Squadron to solve his problem because the story is about the journey of the Ringbearers. That journey is done if the eagles are used, along with the connections of Middle Earth with its people and places to our world that give it credibility, the very reason why so many people love the story and is why the author chose not to use this seemingly easy out.
1. " . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."

J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.

2. We have many ways using technology to be in touch, yet the larger question is are we really connected or are we simply more in touch? There is a difference.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Erunáme wrote:Really I think point three is enough of an explanation. Once Sauron saw the Eagle flying in, all he has to do is unleash the Ringwraiths on their steeds to prevent the Eagle from reaching Mount Doom. Who knows what would happen in an open fight like that? I'd say it would be fairly probable that the Ring would be captured by Sauron.
Certainly. But nothing like the chance that the Ring would be captured by Sauron with Frodo trudging through Mordor for days and days. Looking at it logically and objectively, there is no real question that the Ring that there would have been a much greater chance of destroying the Ring with a quick flight by a single Eagle carrying Frodo (not a flock of giant birds, where did you get that idea, Crucifer?), while the Nazgûl were busy fighting the armies of the Men of the West, than the "fool's hope" of Frodo blindly following Gollum into Shelob's trap, then getting captured by the Orcs and rescued by Sam, then getting caught again and escaping through the confusion, and then finally reaching the Mountain beyond the limits of his strength and will.

But as vison points out, that simply isn't the story (and it would be a much less interesting story). As AJ (and Tolkien himself) remind us, the story is about the journey of the Ringbearers. The Eagles represent divine intervention; you simply can't count on it being there at your will. However, it is no accident that they are there at the end when only a "miracle" can save Frodo and Sam. I do think that is meant to (and does) represent providence. And if I can diverge for a moment, I think that the reason that the Eagle's rescue of Frodo and Sam is probably my favorite moment in all of the films, it is because it captures that sense so well (at least for me).
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Post by Frelga »

I think the best we have is to live with Voronwë's point of the Eagles being servants of Mandos, sent out to rescue Men and Elves important to the plot... I mean to the history of Middle Earth when they exhaust their own resources. That brings up a question or two about Mandos himself, but clearly the Eagles are the clean up service not an airline, and there is not an easy way to contact them.
Looking at it logically and objectively, there is no real question that the Ring that there would have been a much greater chance of destroying the Ring with a quick flight by a single Eagle carrying Frodo (not a flock of giant birds, where did you get that idea, Crucifer?), while the Nazgûl were busy fighting the armies of the Men of the West, than the "fool's hope" of Frodo blindly following Gollum into Shelob's trap, then getting captured by the Orcs and rescued by Sam, then getting caught again and escaping through the confusion, and then finally reaching the Mountain beyond the limits of his strength and will.
Yes, and no. The real hope was that Sauron would never conceive that the Allies would want to destroy the Ring, rather than use it. Throughout the story, he must have assumed that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith, accompanied by the ambitious King candidate. So he left the Cracks of Doom unguarded (another much-discussed plothole) and the hobbits sneaked in. Even a single giant bird, crossing into Mordor, would put all defenses on red alert. The Nazgûl didn't have time to return from the battlefield when Frodo was already in position, but they would have plenty of time to intercept a flight from the borders.

As far as Crucifer's flock, it would have to be more than one Eagle. One bomber, basically, and a few fighters to cover him.

As for point #1 - there would be no story - it is not a valid one, IMO. If a story depends on an "idiot device," that is, if there can only be a story if everyone in the story jumps through flaming hoops when a paved road is in plain sight, then there should not be a story. I'm sure we are all glad that there is, however. :D
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Post by Primula Baggins »

I agree with Frelga. "If they didn't do it that way, there wouldn't be a story" can set up the most thrilling adventure in the world, but it's still a gorgeous palace built on sand, an utter fake. Tolkien didn't do fakes. I suspect the Eagle problem crept in as a bit of a surprise after he had made them such powerful figures without reflecting what it would do to the Quest of the Ring. But since the further rationalizations come from the creator of both, I'm willing to accept them.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by Crucifer »

(not a flock of giant birds, where did you get that idea, Crucifer?)
You did say "Eagles" in the thread title.

And surely a single eagle would have been shot down pretty much immediately. More than one would have been needed. Not exactly subtle.

Furthermore, there wasn't an eagle at the council of Elrond, to say "Hey, we could carry it in and drop it in the pit." And these Eagles do not seem to be the sort who would do something that elves (or wizards, men, dwarfs or hobbits) told them to do.
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Post by MithLuin »

I'm sure you've all seen this, but just in case...

How Lord of the Rings should have ended

They seem to have included the idea that an eagle would not willingly agree to this plan, and also that a diversion would still be needed to distract Sauron. Unlike the author quoted by Voronwë, the creators of this video clearly have participated in such bulletin board discussions before ;). For the one on TORc, look here:
Why not use the eagles to fly the Ring to Mount Doom?

As you can see, the movie would have ended about 2 min. after the Council of Elrond in that case ;)

As a comment, the great Eagles of Middle Earth are modelled on golden eagles, not bald eagles. Not that that makes any difference to this discussion, of course.
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Post by Frelga »

I've seen that one! :rofl: Although to be fair, the creators of the video have conveniently left out the Nazgûl. Or, indeed, Orkish archers.

And I loved the suggestion in the thread, that when Gandalf said, "Fly, you fools," he was giving instructions that the Nine were too thick to understand. Now that explains everything. :D
Last edited by Frelga on Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MithLuin »

Yes, the flaw is discussed in terms of military tactics in the TORc thread I linked:
bellatrys wrote:Why not just have the Eagles? If the *only* - or indeed, *major* reason against it was that otherwise the story would be too short, that would be to say, in short, that Tolkien was a very bad storyteller.

It would be *stupid.*

However, this is in fact along the lines of fans saying things like "There wouldn't need to be any infantry in the future, it's stupid having soldiers in space operas, you could just blow up planets!" It betrays a lack of awareness of strategy, tactics and logistics - the tripod on which all military ventures rest. When it comes to fan assessment of military aspects of LOTR, and that includes the Jackson rewrite, vs JRRT's, JRRT wins every single time. Helm's Deep in the books makes sense. The siege of Gondor makes sense -- in the books, that is, and requires no deliberate staged stupidity on the part of the principals. And this is no exception.

The Eagles are Immortals. They are not, however, invulnerable. Nor are they omniscient - they are limited to their own senses, just like Gandalf. Why couldn't G. just wave his wand and make the Balrog disappear? Because he doesn't have that kind of power, even if he is a Wizard. Likewise the Eagles have limitations, including that they can only be in one place at a time. Several posters have pointed out their fear of getting shot by humans. Like the Ents, they may live essentially forever, but since they have bodies, they are as vulnerable as any other Immortal inhabiting a physical form. Why couldn't the Eagles just carry the Ring to Mordor? Because that would have been, well, carrying the Ring to Mordor - or rather, delivering it directly to Sauron, posthaste. An Eagle the size of a B-24 is hardly able to be missed.

And Eagles are not armoured GoBots - they may be big, but they're just like their mundane relatives in that regard. There's only one recorded instance in history of Middle-earth in which they fight aerial combat, and that is the desperate straight of the War of Wrath, when they helped Eärendil fight against the winged dragon Ancalagon, and I suspect that battle is the reason that Gwaihir is chief of the tribe, and not old Thorondor any more.

In modern military terminology, Mordor should be considered the ultimate "no-fly-zone" - and note, as others have also pointed out, the Eagles only enter Mordor airspace *after* its defensive and offensive capabilities have been essentially neutralized.

You wouldn't take the one secret weapon you *don't* want your enemy getting his hands on, and put it on a cargo plane, and fly it over his heavily-armed territory, now would you? Even the best pilots would be hard put to get it in without being shot down - even if they weren't facing an evil Immortal with all kinds of telepathic powers on top of ordinary sentries armed with projectile weapons of various kinds. No, you'd give it to a small squad of elite commandos and spies and, well, burglars, to get it in "under the radar."

Which is what, as it happened, they did in the books...
Romestamo also contributed to the thread, but not with his usual brilliance.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Crucifer wrote:And these Eagles do not seem to be the sort who would do something that elves (or wizards, men, dwarfs or hobbits) told them to do.
No?

Gandalf: "Bear me to Lothlórien."

Gwaihir: "That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you."


And then there are the occasions in the First Age where the Eagles did the bidding of the Elves, such as Turgon. And, of course, they were in Middle-earth in the first place "at the command" of Manwë himself.
And surely a single eagle would have been shot down pretty much immediately.
How many Eagles are described as having been shot down in all of Tolkien's histories? And these are the birds who were told by Manwë to dwell near Thangorodrim to keep watch on Morgoth, who guarded Gondolin incessantly, who lifted up Fingon to rescue Maedhros from the cliff on the face of Thangorodrim where he hung, who marred the face of Morgoth himself and rescued Fingolfin's body outside the very gates of Angband, and then later rescued Beren and Lúthien in front of that same gate after Carchoroth bit Beren's hand off.

Whether one or several, these are not beings that were easily destroyed, even in the most dire and dangerous of places.
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Post by Frelga »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:How many Eagles are described as having been shot down in all of Tolkien's histories?
Ahem.
The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew," he said, "for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."
OK, so that's the Hobbit, not Sil, but still. Every being in ME, no matter how sturdy or deathless, IS vulnerable.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

First of all, as I said in the first post, the eagles of The Hobbit are simply not the same creatures as the Eagles in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. They have at most a superficial resemblance, but they clearly have a different personality, and history and being. It is one of the reasons that I don't really consider The Hobbit to be "canon" (in the sense of providing reliable information about Middle-earth).

That having been said, I agree with you that every being in Middle-earth is vulnerable to some extent. But I would put the level of vulnerability of the Eagles of LOTR at closer to the level of vulnerability of the Balrog that Gandalf battles in and around Moria then the level of vulnerability of the eagles of The Hobbit.

I have long argued that the Eagles in LOTR are one of the few clear symbols of divine intervention in the book, even without having the benefit of reading The Silmarillion, et al. In fact, I think in some ways it is even clearer in LOTR by itself, because you don't have the intervening element of Manwë.

This is one example of how different reactions to LOTR would have been if Tolkien had had his way and published it and the Silmarillion together as one long saga of the wars of the Jewels and the Rings. Would it have been better, or worse? Arguments can be made in both directions, but I think it virtually incontestable that it would never have been nearly as popular as it became. Of course, however, many of us tend to look at it that way at this point anyway. Certainly my perspective is much different now than it was when I first read LOTR.
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Post by Inanna »

Awesome. I love this thread! ;)

When I saw the video... I thought... what if Frodo didn't drop the ring into Mount Doom? He had problems throwing it into the fire in his house too.
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Post by Impenitent »

2) Eagles are also wild, dangerous, and serve no-one but themselves. I wouldn't let one anywhere near the One Ring once it's been rendered "radioactive" so to speak by Sauron's active searching.
Yeah, I agree, Vinnie; this clanged for me as soon as I'd read it.

I've come to the conclusion that the reason the Eagles were not the solution (in addition to the obvious - that there'd be no story. The story is the story, as vison wisely said, and that's that.) is the reason given at the Council: too often have the elves looked to the West for assistance, and the Eagles of Manwë would have been once more, a helping hand from the West. The problem of the Ring is one that Middle Earth must solve, once and for all.

Yes, they assisted at the edges - bearing Gandalf twice, and rescuing the Ringbearers once the task was done - but they would not do the deed.

And I quote no scholars, and no text, because, as always, I don't have any of them handy and I'm naturally lazy. :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

You don't need to quote any scholars, Impish. I've said this before, and you'll probably believe me no more now than you did then ( :P ), but I greatly appreciate your understanding of Tolkien's work.
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Post by superwizard »

Ah yes of course how could this possible be a Tolkien forum without this question? ;) I remember being asked this question even by my friends who had never even read the books but had simply read the movie-to them it seemed like an obvious solution (that said they were mystified on why Gandalf didn't just go around using his power to destroy whole armies).

I always just rationalized it by simply saying that Sauron would quickly find out if they attempted such a dangerous feat and that small hobbits walking by themselves to the midst of mount doom were much less noticeable and had a better chance...

That said I much prefer V's explanation and find it much more convincing.
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Post by MithLuin »

I agree that The Hobbit must be taken with a grain of salt. I consider that it was written by Bilbo, and he tended to write about things he didn't truly understand ;). Frodo was much more perceptive, so the Lord of the Rings rings truer to Middle Earth. The troll's name probably wasn't Bert.

That being said, I don't cast out The Hobbit wholesale. It was written and published by Tolkien, and he made clear references to the Silmarillion throughout. So, I will give you a different 'personality' for the eagles, but I'd have a hard time seeing why an arrow wouldn't damage them, if it did manage to hit one. After all, Smaug was slain by a single arrow, as was the Nazgûl's fell beast that Legolas shot. The reason eagles are usually immune to arrows is that they fly too high to be shot at. It's an issue of bow strength, not magical invulnerability.

The contention that Thorondor was slain in the battle with Ancalagon is certainly reasonable, even if nowhere stated. The argument that Sauron had fell beasts at his disposal to check or halt an incursion of eagles into his territory is certainly valid. Everyone is terrified of Sauron's might, so to suggest that a couple of eagles would neutralize that just because they can fly is...ridiculous. Once Sauron's might is overcome, the eagles can fly across the plains of Mordor unchecked. But not before.

And to enter the Sammath Naur...the eagle would have to land. Since it would be easy to see them coming and guess the target, you could prepare a defense. Miles are miles in Middle Earth - nothing would be instantaneous.
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