Life-Giving Ladies: Women in the Writings of J.R.R. Tolkien

[vison]

My comment about Galadriel and Mary is, briefly, this: Mary was a mother, first and foremost and only. Mary had to live with some special knowledge of her son's destiny - although not being perfectly familiar with what the gospels have to say about this, I am not sure of that. At any rate, her destiny was to be the mother of god and to see him killed. That is about it, when you get right down to it. I think all the rest, Mary Queen of Heaven, etc., has little to do with Mary's "real" story. She is, to me, only a suffering mother. I do not see her as a person of power. Catholics have suggested to me that she "uses her influence" with her son, but that seems nonsensical to me! I do not intend to belittle Mary, believe me! It's only an outsider's view of this sorrowful woman, who is merciful and compassionate with a mother's loving heart.

Now, Galadriel is also a mother. But she is, first and foremost, a person of power. She is a Major Power, actually. She might be merciful and compassionate upon occasion - but those are not the first things you think about when you think of this great woman. (I refuse to regard Elves as being anything other than "human". I never could. They can have children with humans, so they are human enough, albeit with special qualities!) Galadriel has hard-won wisdom. She has suffered, but she has suffered from her own character "flaws" more than from anything coming from outside herself. She has enormous pride. She is tempted by the prospect of more power and is tested hard. She is not gentle, calm, and sweet. She went to war against Sauron, and was part of the eventual victory.

Galadriel knows that she will see Celebrían again. As for Arwen, Galadriel will "lose" her grand-daughter, I suppose, but since Galadriel lived her life according to her own lights, she was wise and loving enough to let Arwen do the same.

There is a lot more to say, but I have to get to work here!

[Primula Baggins]

A side note: Mary did have an influential moment or two with her son. For instance, in the story of the wedding at Cana, it's Mary who notices that the wine has run out (a terrible thing for the host of a wedding) and brings it to Jesus' attention, which leads to his first miracle, changing water into wine. I always wondered how she knew he could do anything about it.

But, religious context aside, that was still a "motherly" act: "Help these poor people, I know darn well you can!"

[vison]

A side note: Mary did have an influential moment or two with her son. For instance, in the story of the wedding at Cana, it's Mary who notices that the wine has run out (a terrible thing for the host of a wedding) and brings it to Jesus' attention, which leads to his first miracle, changing water into wine. I always wondered how she knew he could do anything about it.

But, religious context aside, that was still a "motherly" act: "Help these poor people, I know darn well you can!"

But that was before she got to Heaven, Prim.

I shouldn't EVER enter these discussions. I am bound, inevitably bound, to say something I shouldn't. So I'll stop here except to say:

As "characters" go, I think these women are fundamentally different.

[Alatar]

Vison,

Not to really get into the discussion one way or the other, I think you're kind of missing the point about Mary for Irish and English Roman Catholics. In these Islands, she holds a hugely prominent position, far beyond what is suggested by her actions in the Bible. In fact there's no real sense to it, but for people of Tolkien's (or my parents) generation, she was above all the saints, and in some ways even above God. While Catholics might pray to Jesus, or to God, it was in Mary that they really invested their hope. It probably explains why (or vice versa) it is Mary who is so often the subject of visions and apparitions. In Lourdes, Medjugore, even the Knock shrine here in Ireland, its Mary, Mother of God who appears to poor people, who cures the sick. Not Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit, not any of the countless other saints.

So, yes, for Tolkien, Mary was as close as you can get to a female god. Did that affect his writing of Galadriel? I really don't know. But I certainly can understand how he would have tried to tie the two together. Even if it was revisionist.

[Primula Baggins]

You and I probably have a more similar perspective on Mary that you think, vison, aside from the fact that I'm a believer and you're not. Protestants see Mary as an important figure in the Gospels, but not a "living presence" in believers' lives; she's part of history.

This is why I'm not going to discuss the difference in character between Galadriel and Mary, either. I know that I don't share Tolkien's Catholic understanding of Mary to begin with. But I'm glad to listen to those who understand Tolkien or Catholicism better than I do.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Only time for a brief comment. I agree that as characters there is a vast difference between Galadriel and Mary. But as symbols there are some striking similarities.

And I agree that this is one area where Tolkien was revisionist, reinventing Galadriel's story to make her more "Mary-ian". I'll say more later.

Andreth, I'd love to see the missing paragraph and footnotes!

[vison]

Vison,

Not to really get into the discussion one way or the other, I think you're kind of missing the point about Mary for Irish and English Roman Catholics. In these Islands, she holds a hugely prominent position, far beyond what is suggested by her actions in the Bible. In fact there's no real sense to it, but for people of Tolkien's (or my parents) generation, she was above all the saints, and in some ways even above God. While Catholics might pray to Jesus, or to God, it was in Mary that they really invested their hope. It probably explains why (or vice versa) it is Mary who is so often the subject of visions and apparitions. In Lourdes, Medjugore, even the Knock shrine here in Ireland, its Mary, Mother of God who appears to poor people, who cures the sick. Not Jesus Christ, not the Holy Spirit, not any of the countless other saints.

So, yes, for Tolkien, Mary was as close as you can get to a female god. Did that affect his writing of Galadriel? I really don't know. But I certainly can understand how he would have tried to tie the two together. Even if it was revisionist.

Well, no, Alatar. I understand very well the position Mary holds in the Church, not only in Ireland. But that is a discussion I won't be drawn into. I would be sure to get into a big fight.

Mary might have been "as close as Tolkien could get to a female god", but Galadriel was not a god. She wasn't a goddess, either. (And a goddess is NOT a female god, there are differences and they are not subtle differences.)

Tolkien's attempt to tie the 2 women together was a big mistake, as far as I'm concerned. There could be another Elven woman who might fit the Marian template, but it was not Galadriel. And since I am not a Silmarillion scholar in any way shape or form, that possibility means little to me. I take LOTR as complete and standalone. I enjoyed the Silmarillion when I read it, which I've done maybe a dozen times, but to me the two universes are very different. I know that wasn't Tolkien's intent, but his intent does not translate into my thoughts and feelings about it.

[solicitr]

The goddess- parallel would be Varda/Elbereth, whom the Noldor do seem to regard as a special intercessor.

[vison]

The goddess- parallel would be Varda/Elbereth, whom the Noldor do seem to regard as a special intercessor.

I think so. But, as I say, I'm not really "up" on the Silmarillion.

But the parallel is not really parallel, is it? Mary's fate was to see her son crucified. Her son was crucified to redeem mankind's sins. There is simply NO parallel in Tolkien's universe for that.

As a matter of fact, I recall some savage fights over "the theme of redemption" in LOTR. I enjoyed the fights, but they were pretty fierce.

[Primula Baggins]

There's no parallel in Tolkien's universe, of course, because to him the Incarnation was a singular event in history, one that had not yet happened at the time of which he was writing.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The goddess- parallel would be Varda/Elbereth, whom the Noldor do seem to regard as a special intercessor.

I think so. But, as I say, I'm not really "up" on the Silmarillion.

You don't need to be "up" on The Silmarillion to get that. It's all over the LOTR.

[vison]