Too Short?
Not with me you aren't. I love the bath song and sing it to my son when I bathe him (although I usually substitute something else for beer ). And while the fox is an aberration, I find it irresistible.
What I wish is not a longer LOTR but more ME stories. EspeciallI'd love to know what was going on in Rhun and Khand and how those lands fell under the shadow.
What I wish is not a longer LOTR but more ME stories. EspeciallI'd love to know what was going on in Rhun and Khand and how those lands fell under the shadow.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
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Yes, too short! Far, far too short!
You know, I first read LoTR more than 30 years ago, and since then all Tolkien's other writings - the Silm, HoME, all the other little stories (except his Father Christmas Letters, but I intend to do so) and I KNOW I've read them all and there's nothing more but nevertheless, whenever I enter a bookstore (which is often), and browse through the fiction (which is also often) I find myself wistfully seeking out Tolkien's name, hoping beyond hope that some lost gem will have revealed itself and that the door to Arda will open once more and provide me with a new vista, and I will live it again anew.
Sigh.
What would I like to see? I would like to see Arwen's story; and Elrond's Tale of Years; and Galadriel's crossing of the ice; and the tales of how the dwarves of Moria and the elves got along before Durin's Bane revealed itself....I want to know everything. I want a whole history, with nothing left out, even if it bores many of you witless
You know, I first read LoTR more than 30 years ago, and since then all Tolkien's other writings - the Silm, HoME, all the other little stories (except his Father Christmas Letters, but I intend to do so) and I KNOW I've read them all and there's nothing more but nevertheless, whenever I enter a bookstore (which is often), and browse through the fiction (which is also often) I find myself wistfully seeking out Tolkien's name, hoping beyond hope that some lost gem will have revealed itself and that the door to Arda will open once more and provide me with a new vista, and I will live it again anew.
Sigh.
What would I like to see? I would like to see Arwen's story; and Elrond's Tale of Years; and Galadriel's crossing of the ice; and the tales of how the dwarves of Moria and the elves got along before Durin's Bane revealed itself....I want to know everything. I want a whole history, with nothing left out, even if it bores many of you witless
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Well said, Impish. The LOTR itself is fine as it is, but there's so little of anything else in Middle-earth. To the more specific list, I'd add a LOT more of Númenor, Ost-in-Edhil and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the Rohirrim and their ancestors, and Arnor and its division and fall, and what else...Impenitent wrote: I want a whole history, with nothing left out, even if it bores many of you witless
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
~ Lao Tzu
Mmm, what Impenitent said! :)
Good point about the Faramir/Frodo meeting, Voronwë.
Call it escapism (and it probably is) but I can't get enough of M-E away from the War of the Ring. Sure it's a great story, and so important, but I just love the glimpses of the world away from all that. You get a lot of it from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil poems - even Tom seems to "work" better when he's doing Tom-ish things in the quiet of a warm Shire afternoon when there are no wars on the horizon. Only the knell of one slow bell/high in the Seaward Tower.....what is Dol Amroth like, anyway? How good is the beer in the Forsaken Inn? Has it really been forsaken or is it just a god-forsaken way from anywhere? Why are the empty lands of Eriador so empty? We've been over the High Pass and Caradhras; what is the Gladden Pass like?
But I know full well that finding out all these things would destroy some of the magic. It's magical to me precisely because it's only tantalisingly glimpsed. Doesn't stop me wanting it, though...
So yes, the book's too short, but if it was any longer, it would probably be too long... :puzzled
Good point about the Faramir/Frodo meeting, Voronwë.
Call it escapism (and it probably is) but I can't get enough of M-E away from the War of the Ring. Sure it's a great story, and so important, but I just love the glimpses of the world away from all that. You get a lot of it from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil poems - even Tom seems to "work" better when he's doing Tom-ish things in the quiet of a warm Shire afternoon when there are no wars on the horizon. Only the knell of one slow bell/high in the Seaward Tower.....what is Dol Amroth like, anyway? How good is the beer in the Forsaken Inn? Has it really been forsaken or is it just a god-forsaken way from anywhere? Why are the empty lands of Eriador so empty? We've been over the High Pass and Caradhras; what is the Gladden Pass like?
But I know full well that finding out all these things would destroy some of the magic. It's magical to me precisely because it's only tantalisingly glimpsed. Doesn't stop me wanting it, though...
So yes, the book's too short, but if it was any longer, it would probably be too long... :puzzled
We do know now, with a reasonable degree of certainty... hereFrelga wrote:Although I would've like to know for sure whether the Ringwraiths or Bill Ferny attacked the Pony.
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Thanks for the tip, Scirocco! I've always secretly assumed that it had to be the Nazgûl.
I guess I'll have to purchase that book. It looks very good. But so scholarly. I worry that it will dilute the magic of Middle-earth. But then, Christopher's work never did that for me.
I remember when UT first came out, how I excited I was at new having new glimples of Middle-earth. And the Wanderings of Húrin, in The War of the Jewels. If LOTR is too short, the Silmarillion is REALLY too short. I would love to have the whole thing told on the scale of the Narn, or The Wanderings of Húrin.
Edited to add: Of course, I've already gone and ordered it.
I guess I'll have to purchase that book. It looks very good. But so scholarly. I worry that it will dilute the magic of Middle-earth. But then, Christopher's work never did that for me.
I remember when UT first came out, how I excited I was at new having new glimples of Middle-earth. And the Wanderings of Húrin, in The War of the Jewels. If LOTR is too short, the Silmarillion is REALLY too short. I would love to have the whole thing told on the scale of the Narn, or The Wanderings of Húrin.
Edited to add: Of course, I've already gone and ordered it.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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I had meant to get back here and explain my previous fly-by post.
But I'm rather pleased that my choice is also Tolkien's. And I love the bath song and the fox!
So, what do I think is wrong with the above quote (and the rest of this alternate ending)?
(Sorry if this causes offense - I somehow think it might! )
When Frodo says: "You will have to be one and whole..." (and the whole speech), I'm bawling with emotion at this prospect for the future.
When Sam says: "but now I am all whole" it makes me gag with the smugness of the statement.
It's just something that doesn't work when a character says it in retrospect about themselves. (When was the last time you looked at your life and made such a grandiloquent statement about it?)
But giving the reader a glimpse into a future of conciliation and continuation, there's something uplifiting about it.
Maybe it has to do with the difference between looking forward and looking backward. Or maybe just with not stating the obvious when you're telling a story.
Another thing that's "wrong" (to my taste) with the alternative ending is that it puts Sam in the wrong!
When Frodo makes his prediction, we have no reason to doubt that things will really be like that, and we are free to imagine that all this happens.
We are free to imagine that Sam lived happily and wholesomely, and still remembered Frodo and the hard times etc., that he was a different hobbit forever after, but still one who was able to live his life successfully.
But in this alternative ending, we have Sam analyse his own feelings and come to the conclusion that everything is perfect - only to be torn out of this by the call of the sea! What are we to conclude from that but that Sam has been living a lie all these years? He is not whole, he thought he was, but he was wrong! I think this is absolutely terrible!
Ok, having mentioned that we are "free to imagine" I'd like to ask something to the people who said that they'd like to "know more" about other aspects of Middle-earth.
Why don't you just imagine the things you miss yourselves?
It's not like they are real history and your own imaginings would be not "true". If the original author has never imagined something, then there is no "true" or "not true" about anything.
Of course, the one special thing about Tolkien's own texts is the quality of the writing - yes, I would enjoy no end of that beautiful prose, and I'm usually the first to say that what anyone else thinks up can't reach up to the original.
But as to the mere subject matter -
Edit (because I think this needs clarification): what I think I was getting at is the difference between just enjoying reading and hearing a good story and wanting to "know" things, wishing for information.
If it's the first, I perfectly understand wishing that Tolkien had written more, but from what you guys said (and what other people have said elsewhere, too) I get the impression that it might be the latter.
So, I'd like to know what kind of 'wish for more' this is that you have expressed?
Well, tastes differ.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:This is the type of thing that I was talking about of Tolkien relating back to a previous statement to close a loop. It may not be to your taste, Hobby, but I like it.I was torn in two then, lass, but now I am all whole.
But I'm rather pleased that my choice is also Tolkien's. And I love the bath song and the fox!
So, what do I think is wrong with the above quote (and the rest of this alternate ending)?
(Sorry if this causes offense - I somehow think it might! )
When Frodo says: "You will have to be one and whole..." (and the whole speech), I'm bawling with emotion at this prospect for the future.
When Sam says: "but now I am all whole" it makes me gag with the smugness of the statement.
It's just something that doesn't work when a character says it in retrospect about themselves. (When was the last time you looked at your life and made such a grandiloquent statement about it?)
But giving the reader a glimpse into a future of conciliation and continuation, there's something uplifiting about it.
Maybe it has to do with the difference between looking forward and looking backward. Or maybe just with not stating the obvious when you're telling a story.
Another thing that's "wrong" (to my taste) with the alternative ending is that it puts Sam in the wrong!
When Frodo makes his prediction, we have no reason to doubt that things will really be like that, and we are free to imagine that all this happens.
We are free to imagine that Sam lived happily and wholesomely, and still remembered Frodo and the hard times etc., that he was a different hobbit forever after, but still one who was able to live his life successfully.
But in this alternative ending, we have Sam analyse his own feelings and come to the conclusion that everything is perfect - only to be torn out of this by the call of the sea! What are we to conclude from that but that Sam has been living a lie all these years? He is not whole, he thought he was, but he was wrong! I think this is absolutely terrible!
Ok, having mentioned that we are "free to imagine" I'd like to ask something to the people who said that they'd like to "know more" about other aspects of Middle-earth.
Why don't you just imagine the things you miss yourselves?
It's not like they are real history and your own imaginings would be not "true". If the original author has never imagined something, then there is no "true" or "not true" about anything.
Of course, the one special thing about Tolkien's own texts is the quality of the writing - yes, I would enjoy no end of that beautiful prose, and I'm usually the first to say that what anyone else thinks up can't reach up to the original.
But as to the mere subject matter -
scirocco, I think the beer in the Forsaken Inn tastes exactly the way you imagine it to taste!what is Dol Amroth like, anyway? How good is the beer in the Forsaken Inn? Has it really been forsaken or is it just a god-forsaken way from anywhere? Why are the empty lands of Eriador so empty? We've been over the High Pass and Caradhras; what is the Gladden Pass like?
Edit (because I think this needs clarification): what I think I was getting at is the difference between just enjoying reading and hearing a good story and wanting to "know" things, wishing for information.
If it's the first, I perfectly understand wishing that Tolkien had written more, but from what you guys said (and what other people have said elsewhere, too) I get the impression that it might be the latter.
So, I'd like to know what kind of 'wish for more' this is that you have expressed?
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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What I would like most is more ME stories written by Tolkien, and in the LotR style rather than the Sil style—more detailed and character-driven.
But I would settle for just "knowing" more—for example, a few notes by Tolkien on events in Far Harad leading up to the War of the Ring would fascinate me because they would tell me what "really" happened there, even if the story wasn't actually told anywhere.
But I would settle for just "knowing" more—for example, a few notes by Tolkien on events in Far Harad leading up to the War of the Ring would fascinate me because they would tell me what "really" happened there, even if the story wasn't actually told anywhere.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Yes, I have, Alatar—I think they're probably part of my troubles with the Silmarillion, because I read UT first and innocently thought the Sil would be more of the same. When really it's got more in common with the Book of Deuteronomy.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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The Wanderings of Húrin is probably the only part of the entire HoME that gives additional detail on the level of LOTR, or of something like the Narn (which in many ways it is a continuation of). I think it is a really fascinating glimpse into both the Brethil community after the time of Túrin, and of Húrin after he is released by Morgoth. I highly recommend it.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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I only have a few volumes, Voronwë—which one is that in?
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Why don't you just imagine the things you miss yourselves?truehobbit wrote:Ok, having mentioned that we are "free to imagine" I'd like to ask something to the people who said that they'd like to "know more" about other aspects of Middle-earth.
Why don't you just imagine the things you miss yourselves?
It's not like they are real history and your own imaginings would be not "true". If the original author has never imagined something, then there is no "true" or "not true" about anything.
Of course, the one special thing about Tolkien's own texts is the quality of the writing - yes, I would enjoy no end of that beautiful prose, and I'm usually the first to say that what anyone else thinks up can't reach up to the original.
No, this would never do!:nono:
It is not the same, it is unsatisfying, because for one thing, I could change my mind. Today the beer is good, tomorrow it isn't.
It is Tolkien's world, not mine. It would be like me trying to finish off Michelangelo's unfinished statues. Impossible!
I would like to know more about Umbar and Harad and far Harad. I want more maps, and details of the other cultures and societies briefly mentioned.
Sirocco! Does me good to see you and read you again! Heading down to Melbourne any time soon? Have you heard about our proposed Great Ozzie Moot in 2007? wilko has expressed interest (just by way of tempting you)
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The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion, Part Two (The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. 11)Primula_Baggins wrote:I only have a few volumes, Voronwë—which one is that in?
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Those are the next two on my list.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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