Dante's Inferno & PotD, plus Eru or Not?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

At any rate, that being is not mentioned in LOTR.

Let's see now, is that true? (I'm thinking out loud here, at least so far as you think "out loud" on a messageboard). The only direct reference that I think of is the "you were meant to find the Ring, and not by Sauron" speech of Gandalf. I suppose that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to interpret that as not referring to the One. I can't think of any more explicit references to Eru in the book, off hand. Can anyone else?

[vison]

The only other time I can think of is when the Oliphaunt is rampaging and one of Faramir's men says, "May the Valar turn him!" or something of that nature.

If you are looking for Eru, you may find Eru.

I don't look for Eru.

I think it's a sign (not a Sign) that this is a great book: here we are, arguing over it for the zillionth time!!!!

At any rate. I was always a bit put off by that "meant to find the Ring". If God was going to interfere, then why didn't God just destroy the Ring? Or destroy Sauron? Or Morgoth? Or, you know, why didn't The Eagles take Frodo?

I most cordially dislike, no I LOATHE gods in machines. Or out of them, when it comes to arranging the affairs of Earth or Middle Earth.

[Primula Baggins]

I always read "meant to find the Ring" as "this is what Eru wished to have happen," not "this is what Eru made happen." One of the things I love about LotR is how clear the message comes through that what happens in the world depends on the actions and intentions of living people, not on any supernatural interference. That is not incompatible with believing in God.

[N.E. Brigand]

The only other time I can think of is when the Oliphaunt is rampaging and one of Faramir's men says, "May the Valar turn him!" or something of that nature.

I believe the "Valar" are twice invoked in the main text of LotR. The other occasion is at Aragorn's coronation, when Gandalf exclaims, "Now come the days of the King, and may they be blessed while the thrones of the Valar endure!" And Théoden is compared to Oromë, whose "kine" are also mentioned by Denethor, but in neither case is the name explained. Eru, as "The One", is mentioned in the LotR appendices. There are other hints. Early on, Paul Kocher did very well teasing out a fair amount of "Silmarillion" material from LotR in his excellent 1972 book, Master of Middle-earth. There have probaby been numerous online attempts to ennumerate such references. This one is good, if neither comprehensive nor final:

"On Tolkien's suppression of overt religion (belief or practice) in the LotR"

On the other hand, I very much agree with you that the story need not be read that way, and even that doing so gets in the way of the plot. That was the good response to a discussion in which I once participated, where it had been proposed that unseen higher powers aided the Hobbits in their journey across the Shire:

It destroys the adventure if we perceive this to be the real situation, that Eru and the Valar (who else could it be?) are aiding our heroes every step of the way. Tolkien knows this, and withholds such aid as often as he can. I wonder if such interpretations are only open to those who have read the book so often, that they can see in retrospect signs that no first-time reader can see; signs that, in some cases, Tolkien himself did not intend. I worry that they have forgotten the adventure and are enthralled by the metaphysics only.

[N.E. Brigand]

I don't know that Tolkien specifically described something like this in Morgoth's Ring, but I actually made a suggestion of something of this sort based on something that he did say in Morgoth's Ring (actually in the "Athrabeth"), in a discussion here about the nature of the Orcs. I wrote...

Thanks for the excerpt and link, Voronwë. Fascinating stuff.

[axordil]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the modern writer whose theology is closest to JRRT's, as expressed in his fiction, is Graham Greene. In both cases it seeps in despite the author's efforts to suppress it, although their motivations are quite different--nearly polar opposites, in fact.

The gist of both author's fiction is this: you don't get to understand grace, or to approve of it, or to even comment on it intelligently in most cases. It's ineffable and inscrutable, it's God's to dispense, and that's just how it is.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I always read "meant to find the Ring" as "this is what Eru wished to have happen," not "this is what Eru made happen." One of the things I love about LotR is how clear the message comes through that what happens in the world depends on the actions and intentions of living people, not on any supernatural interference. That is not incompatible with believing in God.

I'm somewhat in between. I don't think that Eru "wishes" for things to happen; He is above that. But I do think that he leaves a lot of room for His will to be reflected in the free will of His children.

In my opinion, there is only one place in the Lord of the Rings where Eru directly influences the events of the Tale. Can any guess what I am referring to? Interestingly, N.E., it is not in NZ Strider's list that you posted (which nonetheless is an excellent summary of the religious references in the work; thank you for posting it). And while Tolkien's letters confirm that it was his intention to have this one action be the result of Eru's direct intervention, it is certainly possible to read the story itself without making that interpretation.

So what am I talking about?

I am referring to Gandalf being sent back to Middle-earth after he was killed in the battle with the Balrog.

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. <snip>

<snip>For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defense of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say was what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. <snip>

<snip>He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

Of course, most of that is not spelled out in the text. The only real hint of Tolkien's intention is the "passed out of thought and time" comment. But I'm not sure what other interpretation can be given to that statement.

(Lali, sorry to osgiliate your thread so far from the original topic. I would be happy to split off the posts about Tolkien and religion to a separate thread if you would like.)

[Alatar]

But V, I thought you were of the opinion that Eru "pushed" Gollum at the cracks of doom? Thats a pretty direct influence.

[Lalaith]

Voronwë, don't you dare split this thread! It's fascinating! I just haven't had time to chime in.

I hope to later.


Lali

[Teremia]

late footnote on "meant to find the Ring."

The British use of "meant" is different from the American one, isn't it?

It seems to mean "supposed to." I think I recall hearing people saying things like "I was meant to go to the dentist this morning" -- well, something like that! I've mangled it, I'm sure.

But the difference seems to me to be that there's more room for failure. You can be supposed to do things, and not do them. Not so much the sense that the Eru-Machine has everything thought out in advance.

(My sincere apologies for the linguistic mangling above -- can a native speaker of the Genuine Anguish help me out here? )

[Alatar]

Teremia has it right.

[Primula Baggins]

Thanks for that, Teremia! I never knew that.

So I was understanding "meant" in the British sense without knowing there was a "British" sense.

Voronwë, I should have chosen a better word than "wished": I don't envision Eru as sitting up there longing for particular outcomes and hoping they will come about. But (and I'm going Creationist here, because I'm talking about Middle-earth, not Earth) he did create the peoples of Middle-earth with longings and inclinations that sometimes lead them in directions that Eru "wishes," or at least make them draw back from evil. That is somewhat removed from simply programming people to do his will.

Which is a long way of saying

he leaves a lot of room for His will to be reflected in the free will of His children.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

But V, I thought you were of the opinion that Eru "pushed" Gollum at the cracks of doom? Thats a pretty direct influence.

Al, I love having you around. You keep me honest. Yes, indeed I have said in the past that Eru "inserted the hand of God" into the story to push Gollum over the edge of the cliff at the cracks of doom. In fact I almost mentioned that in my post earlier, in the context of saying that I am not sure that I still hold on to that view. Certainly I have never found anyone else who agrees with that proposition.

Teremia, that is definitely how I have always interpreted "meant".

Lali, as long as you are happy to have the discussion here, I am happy to leave it here. You may want to adjust the title of the thread to reflect that it has gone beyond discussing both Dante and the Paths of the Dead, but I'll leave that up to you.

[vison]

I musta missed that discussion, Voronwë, because I am amongst the throng who does NOT think that Eru pushed Gollum.

Gollum fell by chance --- just as he found the Ring by chance. Once he had the Ring, the rest of the tale happened as it would.

As for what Eru "meant"? The trouble with gods is that they are often mean and capricious, and stir the pot too much. Or too little. I prefer the tale without a god, without anyone meaning anything whether it means Americans or Brits. With the exception of Gandalf's resurrection, the tale is utterly plausible, within the "rules" of Middle Earth. And, as I said earlier, I explained Gandalf's return by means of Elvish Magic.

See, he wasn't 100% dead. He was only 99.99999999% dead. Galadriel could easily deal with that. She had the means, and she meant to do it from the moment she heard of his fall. She wasn't mean (as in cruel) nor was she mean (as in tight with her time and effort).

[Lalaith]

He's only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.... Now, mostly dead is slightly alive.


(Sorry! I couldn't help it! )


Lali

[vison]

He's only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.... Now, mostly dead is slightly alive.


(Sorry! I couldn't help it! )


Lali

That's exactly what I was thinking of!!!

Loved that movie.