Words, Phrases & Passages in the Lord of the Rings

Seeking knowledge in, of, and about Middle-earth.
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MithLuin
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Post by MithLuin »

Primula Baggins wrote:But consider the Hobbit Elves: singing Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley! And the Elvish butler getting drunk. I haven't read The Hobbit in many years, but I remember being struck by the completely different "flavor" the Elves had.
Agreed. The Hobbit elves are most definitely 'of fairie'. Gildor and his company are the most similar to them, while the elves of Rivendell and Lothlórien are not like that.

But then you have Elrond, who is in both.....
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Primula Baggins
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Post by Primula Baggins »

Yes, but even Gildor and his company are "higher" somehow (at some points so patronizing to the hobbits that I want to smack them, but that's being a Man [Woman?] for you).

I like the idea of The Hobbit being told as an amusing tale to hobbits and LotR as having been written as a serious historical record. That would account for this inconsistency, anyway.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by solicitr »

Um, Gildor and his company *are* of Rivendell. (It's not clear from the narrative, but in notes printed in Hammond & Scull, Gildor's group were Noldor from Rivendell on a field-trip to look in the palantír of Emyn Beraid.)

Which does beg the question, why the hell didn't they just keep Frodo with them?
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Re: Words, Phrases & Passages in the Lord of the Rings

Post by N.E. Brigand »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:However, as Brigand noted earlier, he further points out that those of the Maiar corrupted by Melkor "stank", and thus could only deceive the Eldar when clad in their fanar (which presumably concealed their smell, I guess). Tolkien states that the spirits corrupted by Melkor could appear in fair forms to the Eldar, but only up to the time of the destruction of the trees. However, that raises a very interesting question about Sauron (or Mairon, as Brigand notes he was originally called). For Sauron was able appear in fair forms to the Eldar well into the Second Age of Middle-earth. This implies a degree of independence from Melkor far greater than that of the other spirits corrupted by him. Very interesting, indeed!
Good catch, and interesting interpretation. Or perhaps Tolkien simply overlooked Sauron's history when writing the several "PHAN" entries (I don't think he's mentioned there).

I wonder if the Elvish sensory response to evil that Tolkien describes here --darkness and stink-- are connected to the Elves' response to the Black Speech in "The Council of Elrond": they "stopped their ears".
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Re: Words, Phrases & Passages in the Lord of the Rings

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

N.E. Brigand wrote:Good catch, and interesting interpretation. Or perhaps Tolkien simply overlooked Sauron's history when writing the several "PHAN" entries (I don't think he's mentioned there).
I suppose that is possible; certainly the PHAN entries go way off afield from anything related to LOTR. However, it is a work that is supposed to be about Words, Phrases and Passages in LOTR, and it is hard for me to believe that the main enemy of that work would be so completely out of Tolkien's mind.

Moreover, there are other indications of Sauron's independence scattered throughout the later Silmarillion (and related) material. He is, of course, the only one of Melkor's servants who is specified to have come of the people of another Vala, Aulë. There is a further statement that was included in the later Quenta version of the chapter "Of the Ruin of Beleriand" in which it states that Sauron "dwelt among the people of the Valar" before Morgoth drew him to evil, but that statement is omitted from the published Silmarillion. The statement at the end of the Valaquenta that Sauron "was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself" implies a degree of equality beyond that would normally be expected between a master and a servant. He managed to escape Melkor's fate when the first dark lord was first captured and chained. More telling is the description of his actions at the time of Morgoth's overthrow in the War of Wrath in Of the Rings of Power:
Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first first falsely done, but that Sauron it truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West.
This certainly implies a level of independence far beyond that of a spirit bound to Melkor's will.

But most telling of all are the "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" printed in the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring. There is, of course, the well-known statement at the beginning of that work that "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth was at the first age" and there are several other comments to the effect that Sauron was in some ways "wiser than Melkor/Morgoth". But the most interesting comment of all is that Sauron "probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor." This certainly raises Sauron to a much higher level than I had previously considered.
I wonder if the Elvish sensory response to evil that Tolkien describes here --darkness and stink-- are connected to the Elves' response to the Black Speech in "The Council of Elrond": they "stopped their ears".
That's an excellent point!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Alatar »

It might have been less effective if they had instead held their noses... ;)
Upon this very ring which you have here seen held aloft, round and unadorned, the letters that Isildur reported may still be read, if one has the strength of will to set the golden thing in the fire a while. That I have done, and this I have read:

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

The change in the wizard's voice was astounding. Suddenly it became menacing, powerful, harsh as stone. A shadow seemed to pass over the high sun, and the porch for a moment grew dark. All trembled, and the Elves held their noses.
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Post by Andreth »

I finally have my copy! It was a birthday present, precious, yes it was.

Now I just to find some time to look at more closely...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

It's definitely worth looking at it closely, Andreth. There are fascinating nuggets buried in there.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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