Fate and Free Will in LOTR and the Silmarillion

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't agree with her use of the word unpredictable. Something inevitable cannot be unpredictable. The method perhaps, but not the actual event and that may be what she was referring to.

It is unpredictable to everyone except the "Writer of the Story" (as Tolkien referred to Eru) even if it is inevitable.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Here's something I can't quite square (aside from my general and universal dislike for fate and divine planning). It says right there, black and white, in the Silmarillion, that Men are not bound by fate, that Men are born in the world, live in it, and then leave the place entirely upon dying. Yet Beren, Túrin and his kin, and Tuor are all Men who end up being more or less the puppets of fate. In fact, most of the characters in the Sil are puppets of fate. The rage and rail against it, but they're stuck on the path ordained for them.

Someone will probably correct me on this, but I don't think Túrin is caught up in fate. He is doomed but not fated, if you see what I mean. Yes, he has Morgoth's thought upon him so bad things would have happened, but his own nature was very volatile anyway. If he hadn't been so rash, Morgoth's curse would have (I think) been less devastating. There was never a specific end predetermined for him as far as I know. His decisions shaped the course that Morgoth's curse would take. Of course, Túrin was also bound up with the Elves who didn't have so much free will so in some cases I suppose it gets a bit tangled. Same for Beren and Tuor.

And yet, what has happened has happened. It was not necessarily destined, not necessarily foresung in the Music, and yet the concatenation of events is such that nothing else could have happened. The ring is governemd by fate, its very creation foresung in the Music. Gollum and Frodo, each as a Hobbit of the race of Men, of human kind, have the power to act beyond the Music and to have their actions shape events. In a letter, Tolkien described the destruction of the Ring and the salvation of Frodo as "grace," the unforeseeable result of free actions by Sam, Frodo, and Gollum. [Golllum] "did rob and injure [Frodo] in the end -- but by a 'grace,' that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing anyone cd. have done for Frodo!" (Letters 234). Fate and free will have come together to produce the inevitable, unpredictable, and necessary end.

Exactly what I believe.

I essentially agree with Flieger, but I respectfully disagree with you. Idon't think that necessarily means that the hand of God was at work so much as that Frodo's mercy (and Sam's, of course) allowed that situation to occur, that 'grace' if you will. Maybe that's what you're saying and I missed it, but I think it was more Frodo and Sam's mercy stepping in (karma, if you will) than Eru, sort of like how Bilbo was able to resist the effects of the Ring because of how he obtained and gave it up. Like Alatar, I really dislike the idea of "Thanks for getting it so far, I can take it from here." I can see that in a sort of "Gods helps those who help themselves" way but it's still too frustrating. There's a line my favourite play, Arcadia, that says "Believe in God, in the soul, the spirit, the infinite, believe in angels if you like, but not in the celestial get-together for an exchange of views. If the answers are in the back of the book, I can wait, but what a drag. Better to know that failure is final." Perhaps I'm seeing things that aren't there because I want Arcadia to be applicable (it really is a beautiful play), but I think it's the same sort of thing. What's the point of struggling and sacrificing all that if in the end, God just gives everything a nudge and it's okay all of a sudden?

Edit: This is why I shouldn't go to rehearsals and such while in mid-post. Even if that's what Tolkien intended, it still bothers me.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Mossy, I think that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, even if it is not what Tolkien said he intended.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Thank you, but if Tolkien intended it otherwise, it isn't really correct.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't know that I fully agree with that. I mean, I certainly put a lot of stock in what an author (or any artist) states was his intentions, but I don't think that a "correct" interpretation of a work of literature (or other art) is completely limited by such a statement. I certainly don't think that one could argue that it is valid to interpret the work as not meaning that Frodo was "intended" to have the Ring by a higher power, because Gandalf's statement to that effect is so authoritative and explicit. But the ending is left ambiguous enough that I do think it open to interpretation. Tolkien could have made it more explicit if he so wished. In my opinion part of his brilliance is that he did not make things like that more explicit, thus making is work more accessible to a wider audience. It is no coincidence, I think, that despite the fact that Tolkien's own deeply Christian beliefs are reflected in his work, it is still popular among people who do not sure those beliefs, as well as those who do.

[Holbytla]

What he intended and what he wrote are not necessarily the same thing. Especially when one of the references is a then unpublished work.

[axordil]

I certainly put a lot of stock in what an author (or any artist) states was his intentions, but I don't think that a "correct" interpretation of a work of literature (or other art) is completely limited by such a statement.

Art (at least GOOD art) is not just a big puzzle to be "solved" by the public, no--although that is always an element in it. The act of sharing something with other people opens it up to interpretation. Of course, some interpretations are more idiosyncratic and less generally informative than others (I am reminded of the student for whom the whale in Moby-Dick was his grandmother--I'm sure it made him happy to think so, but it doesn't help the rest of us much).

[Alatar]

This is true. I'm eternally grateful that the music people chose for Tolkiens work is almost universally superior to his own preferences.