Túrin's story and Tolkien's conception of God

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

It is also yet one more example of Tolkien's narrative method of doubling an incident then creating rich complexities from the variations.
Frodo meeting Faramir/Aragorn meeting Éomer.
Elder son, Boromir dying; bereft father and new heir/ Only son, Theodred dying; bereft father and new heir.
Hobbits trapped in tree and charmed out by Bombadil song/ Hobbits trapped in barrow and charmed out by Bombadil song.
Etc etc.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It is also yet one more example of Tolkien's narrative method of doubling an incident then creating rich complexities from the variations.

I was thinking that, too, Tosh. That really may be worth a thread of its own.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

You will do it greater justice than I, Voronwë.
It's not the doubling of incident I find interesting. I think that was just a simple spur to invention, perhaps when he was stuck for a plot. It is the narrative richness that it leads to.

[axordil]

And the opportunity for contrast and thematic assonance. As has been noted before, it's hard NOT to compare Théoden and Denethor, and through them Rohan and Gondor to a great extent. There's various reasons that might be behind that, but I think some echo of the relationship between the late Roman Empire and the Germanic tribes of the Dark Ages is hard to deny.

The trick is doing it without it becoming formulaic and repetitious--and he doesn't always manage it. The second Bombadil rescue doesn't work well for me, as an example.

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

It is also yet one more example of Tolkien's narrative method of doubling an incident then creating rich complexities from the variations.
Frodo meeting Faramir/Aragorn meeting Éomer.
Elder son, Boromir dying; bereft father and new heir/ Only son, Theodred dying; bereft father and new heir.
Hobbits trapped in tree and charmed out by Bombadil song/ Hobbits trapped in barrow and charmed out by Bombadil song.
Etc etc.

The whole of the Lord of the Rings is in many ways a doubling of incidents from "The Hobbit".

There are many structural parallels between “The Hobbit” and LOTR (many of which are deliberate; though some critics accuse Tolkien of a lack of imagination for the many similarities). The following is an enlargement of a partial list that I originally came up with on a discussion of "The Hobbit" on electricpenguin:

• Leave Bag End.
• Party is captured and near death (Trolls vs. Barrow Wights)
• Go to Rivendell and receive advice and aid.
• Attempt to cross over mountains. (Mountain pass vs. Redhorn Pass)
• Fail to go over mountains. (Goblin capture vs. Snows of Caradhras)
• Go under mountains in state of great danger. (Goblins vs. Orcs, Trolls, Balrog)
• Lose wizard. (Gandalf eludes Goblins, where is he? vs. Gandalf falls in abyss.)
• Wizard returns in dramatic fashion (Gandalf reappears to pyrotechnics vs. Gandalf the White)
• Grudging Sanctuary is given, followed by acceptance and gifts. (Beorn vs. Lórien)
• Giver of Sanctuary wreaks revenge on enemies (Beorn kills wargs and goblins vs. Lórien Elves killing Moria Orcs.)
• Gift are given (Beorn gives ponies, honey cakes etc vs. Galadriel's gifts)
• Group splits (Gandalf leaves/Dwarves captured vs. the Breaking of the Fellowship).
• Dangerous or enchanted forest (Mirkwood vs. Fangorn).
• River of dangerous enchantment (Forest river vs. Morgul Vale)
• Spiders (Mirkwood bunch vs. Shelob)
• Captivity. (Dwarves in the Wood-elves Caves vs. Frodo in Cirith Ungol, also Merry and Pippin with the Orcs)
• A character is forced to wear the ring to avoid capture (Bilbo in Elf Caves vs. Sam near Cirith Ungol).
• Rescue and escape against great odds. (Bilbo saves dwarves by hiding them in barrels vs Sam “Elf Warrior” freeing Frodo in Cirith Ungol, also the fortuitous escape of Merry and Pippin from Grishnakh)
• A river adventure follows (Barrel Riders vs Aragorn on the ships of the Corsairs).
• Rulers of men who are NOT kings have doubt and scorn for the quest and hatred of the true King (Laketown mayor vs. Denethor the Steward -- Thorin/Bard as kings of their respective domains vs. Aragorn as King of Arnor/Gondor).
• Journey leads to a place of great desolation (the desolation of Smaug vs. Mordor)
• A hidden path is followed (Back door in the Hobbit vs. Cirith Ungol, also Paths of the Dead)
• Flying creature/unkillable threat is killed by a secondary character as a prelude to actual climax (Smaug killed by Bard vs. the Witch-king flying beast--not to mention old Wiki himself--killed by Éowyn.)
• Adventure ends at stand-alone mountain with great battle raging (Lonely Mountain vs. Mount Doom/Battle of Five Armies vs. The Black Gate Opens)
• Hero makes morally dubious decision that works out (Bilbo takes the Arkenstone vs. Frodo claims the Ring)
• Eagles appear at climax. (And also serve as saviors in an earlier episode.)
• An object of great desire drives a character mad in the vicinity of the Mountain (Arkenstone of Thrain affects Thorin vs. Ring affects Frodo/Gollum)
• A relatively extended denouement and return to both Rivendell and the Shire
• Etc.

So the question is: Are “The Hobbit” and LOTR really the same story?

BrianIs AtYou

[axordil]

Pretty much the same, yes. The only differences are tone and character, but those are significant.

I would say that The Hobbit is a prelude not only chronologically but thematically. If I had to guess I would say that Tolkien discovered after writing the first that he had a desire to revisit those themes in a deeper way.

Of course, the motifs themselves and the overall plot structure are all drawn from older stories. Much older. Gilgamesh older. But Tolkien was the first modern author I can think of to revisit the Hero's Journey with a Christian as well as a pagan frame of reference in mind, and to do so unironically.