The Problem of Aragorn

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The Problem of Aragorn

Post by axordil »

Prim said, in another thread,
And, if there were other important "round" characters, I might never have come to love the hobbits as I do
That's the essential tension in the structure in a nutshell. The hobbits aren't fairly-tale heroes, but wander into a world of fairy-tale heroes. And fairy-tale heroes (and villains) are notoriously two-dimensional. Legolas and Gimli and, yes, book-Aragorn change little if any in LOTR. Faramir too, but he's essentially a walk-on plot device. Boromir at least gets to have a dying change of heart. :D

In Anatomy of Criticism terms, the hobbits are mimetic characters who enter an ongoing romance and return from it scathed to varying degrees.

This made me think...the change of Aragorn from a character of romance to a mimetic character is arguably the single greatest change PJ made in adapting the books. It also has, not surprisingly, the greatest fallout, good, bad and indifferent. To make Aragorn a character that changes and grows mimetically, Arwen has to be pumped up (so she matters as something more than a symbol), Elrond has to become a bit of an antagonist, Théoden has to become more of a compare/contrast figure...it goes on and on. The fall off the cliff. The horse whisperer. The Paths of the Dead Scrubbing Bubbles.

So why the change?

A huge chunk of screen time is taken up by the Aragorn subplot. If Aragorn is already as ready for the Kingship as he is in the books, that subplot becomes, well, travelogue. Not attractive from a cinematic point of view.

So then why does that travelogue work in the books? Do we need some outright heroism to contrast with Sam and Frodo's quiet resolve? Do we require the presence of some archetypal story elements to give the tale some scope, some sweep?
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Post by yovargas »

So then why does that travelogue work in the books?


I'm not all that sure it did work entirely. For me, at least.
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Post by Inanna »

First off, Ax, thats a great analysis. I never thought about it, but you are so right. The Hobbits have been thrown into a world where the heroes and villians are fairly "constant", and the simple Hobbits change in reaction and via interaction.
So then why does that travelogue work in the books? Do we need some outright heroism to contrast with Sam and Frodo's quiet resolve? Do we require the presence of some archetypal story elements to give the tale some scope, some sweep?
Yes, it worked for me (so boo to Yov ;)).

First off, I think some of us approached the book as an epic. Not as mere fiction, but as an epic. And in epics the heroes are heroes - wonderful kingly people and the villians are villians - steeped in evil for varying reasons. Then we have people in between who look up to these heroes to fight the villians. Thats where you have Faramir, Theodore. (By the way, Gimli and Legolas do change. Even if it is just in their attitude towards elves and dwarfs respectively. The erosion of specisim. )
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Post by axordil »

By the way, Gimli and Legolas do change. Even if it is just in their attitude towards elves and dwarfs respectively. The erosion of specisim
I almost brought that up. Thus the "little if any". :) Although I think perhaps a change in attitude isn't the same as a change in character: both L and G start off READY to change. All they need is a few months in each other's company. :D
I'm not all that sure it did work entirely. For me, at least.
That's a real possibility. There are certainly people who skimmed a lot of Frodo and Sam to read up on the battles, and there are people who loved the hobbits the first time through and skipped large chunks of Helm's Deep.

I have to admit I started as one of the former...but with time, and the dulling of heroism's charms, I spend more emotional energy on Frodo and Sam (and Merry and Pippin to a lesser extent).
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Ax, I have a lot to say about this subject, but it's going to take me a little while to collect my thoughts. I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring it, because I am definitely not.
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Post by axordil »

Thanks, Dr. Vee.

I think it matters that when one asks the question, "wouldn't it be cool to be Aragorn" the answer is pretty much Yes, but when one asks the question, "wouldn't it be cool to be Frodo" the answer is pretty much No.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

That's a really important point, Ax. I wonder if that isn't part of the reason for the nature of epic heroes, the lack of self-questioning: they're who a lot of people who listened to the epics would like to be. Determined, doubt-free, and ending up on top.

Whereas the people listening to the epics knew all about being hungry and exhausted and filthy and empty of hope, thanks very much, and had no interest in revisiting the experience in someone else's skin.

I'll be back.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
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Post by vison »

I liked book-Aragorn. He was like Zane Grey's "Man of the Forest". :D

We know Aragorn had doubts before the story starts. But by the time we meet him, he is resolved and firm, and has set out on his path to the throne.

I can see that kind of character might not be too interesting in a movie. But I will never forgive PJ for the cheapening of Aragorn's nobility, nor the miserably nasal whine of Viggo Mortenson's voice, nor the horse kiss, nor the bowing to all 4 hobbits. Nor nearly anything else. :rage:

The one scene, and it is nearly the ONLY one, in which movie Aragorn even faintly resembled book-Aragorn was the lovely scene in which he recited Elendil's words in a shower of white petals.

I maintain, in the face of common sense and the outraged cries of movie fans, that Aragorn could and should have been handled better.
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Post by yovargas »

And yet he was about 8 billion times more itneresting and memorable then Bookagorn. Odd that. :scratch:

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Post by axordil »

I don't think PJ cheapened Aragorn's nobility, unless one defines nobility as, to use Prim's words, being "determined and doubt-free." That's a pretty limiting view--from a modern standpoint. It of course works from the standpoint of medieval romance.

Conversely, Frodo's nobility works from a modern standpoint, but not from that of medieval romance.
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Post by Alatar »

vison wrote: We know Aragorn had doubts before the story starts. But by the time we meet him, he is resolved and firm, and has set out on his path to the throne.
I disagree. Aragorn is constantly questioning himself and his decisions. "All that I have done this day has gone amiss, now at last may I make a right choice!". If there's one thing a leader needs to be, its decisive and until Parth Galen Aragorn exists completely in Gandalfs shadow, looking to him for guidance, and after his fall wondering what plans he had made.

The people who complain about "self-doubting Aragorn" in the movie should read the book a little closer. Book Aragorns doubts may not be about his Kingship, but they are certainly there about his leadership.
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Post by Crucifer »

Strider wasn't confident enough in his support to claim his birthright. I think that meeting Frodo and co., and seeing Frodos determination to do what he had to, no matter what whoevr thought of it, made him realise that he was ready to claim his crown.

Film Aragorn was a sap.
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Post by vison »

Alatar wrote:
vison wrote: We know Aragorn had doubts before the story starts. But by the time we meet him, he is resolved and firm, and has set out on his path to the throne.
I disagree. Aragorn is constantly questioning himself and his decisions. "All that I have done this day has gone amiss, now at last may I make a right choice!". If there's one thing a leader needs to be, its decisive and until Parth Galen Aragorn exists completely in Gandalfs shadow, looking to him for guidance, and after his fall wondering what plans he had made.

The people who complain about "self-doubting Aragorn" in the movie should read the book a little closer. Book Aragorns doubts may not be about his Kingship, but they are certainly there about his leadership.
Aragorn questioned himself a couple of times, yes. But he did not question his destiny. That's what I meant.

And I agree with the rest of your comments, too. :D

However, the fashion for heroes changes a lot. Once we were happy to accept Gary Cooper in High Noon, now we accept Bruce Willis in Diehard 4: "Die Hard under my zimmer frame!"
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Post by axordil »

Strider wasn't confident enough in his support to claim his birthright.
The Strider-Aragorn transition is problematic no matter how one looks at it, in no small part due to the fact that the character was originally a hobbit. :D But the sense of destiny accepted and cherished is there from the moment that Narsil appears. I would say instead that the STORY is in transition between the Shire and Rivendell, as the hobbits leave the familiar behind and increasing enter a Larger World, with Larger Characters.

Insert height joke here. :)
Aragorn is constantly questioning himself and his decisions.
Actually, let's break it down. Book Aragorn has seven distinct phases of action, if not character:

1) Protector of the Hobbits (Bree to Rivendell)
2) Gandalf's second (Rivendell to the Balrog)
3) Leader of the Fellowship (Balrog to Breaking)
4) First of the three hunters (Breaking to Gandalf the White)
5) Commander of Men (Gandalf the White to Paths of the Dead)
6) Fulfiller of Prophecy (Paths of the Dead to Morannon)
7) Elessar the King (Morannon to Leavetaking)

Note these are all roles he fills, as opposed to different aspects of his personality or levels of growth he attains. That in itself is telling. Moreover, the self-recrimination is really limited during phases 3 and 4--which, yes, is while Gandalf is gone.

Note--it wouldn't take much to bring Joe Campbell into this discussion at this point. :)
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Re: The Problem of Aragorn

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axordil wrote:So then why does that travelogue work in the books? Do we need some outright heroism to contrast with Sam and Frodo's quiet resolve? Do we require the presence of some archetypal story elements to give the tale some scope, some sweep?
Aragorn may not change much, but he is revealed throughout the the books. His journey is not from doubt to resolve but from worn Ranger to King. It's a very different sort of change than the ones the hobbits go through, but it's still a change. And yes, I do think we need a contrast to Frodo and Sam's sort of heroism, though not for scope or sweep. It makes them more poignant somehow and underlines the fact that they accomplish what they do. When they first meet Strider in Bree, he is grim and worn but he is still clearly a very high, noble sort of person while the hobbits are still rather simple and naive, but by the end of the book, Frodo is in a way his equal. If Strider had to make that journey, too, I think Frodo's would be lessened in a way. He's still very human, though. As Alatar pointed out, Aragorn definitely has his moments of doubt and indecision, but Tolkien was able to pull that off in a way that PJ wasn't. I'm not sure how to say what the difference is, but I do think there is one. It's those little things that make him real rather than the massive self-doubt that PJ gave him, like when they're trekking to the Ford and it says that "even Strider seemed by the sag of his shoulders to be weary." That's the first clue we get that he needs sleep at all, but still. I'd contrast him to Wesley from the Princess Bride -- Wesley is perfect. I mean the man can drink poison and come back from the dead, and we never get anything, not a single hint, that he has any sort of flaw. Aragorn does have these 'flaws' and doubt. He can do more than a normal person, but he can't do everything. I wonder if Strider from Bree would have been able to ride down the Paths of the Dead. Anyway, coming back from that long tangent trail, I think that's why he really works as a hero in the books -- he does have that nobility and strenght of an epic hero, but he's not perfect. That's why he stays interesting.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

axordil wrote:Book Aragorn has seven distinct phases of action, if not character:

1) Protector of the Hobbits (Bree to Rivendell)
2) Gandalf's second (Rivendell to the Balrog)
3) Leader of the Fellowship (Balrog to Breaking)
4) First of the three hunters (Breaking to Gandalf the White)
5) Commander of Men (Gandalf the White to Paths of the Dead)
6) Fulfiller of Prophecy (Paths of the Dead to Morannon)
7) Elessar the King (Morannon to Leavetaking)

Note these are all roles he fills, as opposed to different aspects of his personality or levels of growth he attains. That in itself is telling. Moreover, the self-recrimination is really limited during phases 3 and 4--which, yes, is while Gandalf is gone.
I find it interesting how many of those roles he could be said to have failed at. Frodo is stabbed by the Witch King while Aragorn is ostensibly protecting him. Gandalf falls to the Balrog while Aragorn is his second (not his fault, but, again, on his watch). The Fellowship breaks while he is leading it. The Three Hunters, led by Aragorn, never find their quarry until they get help from Gandalf the White. And the Commander of Men rides away from his command to follow the Paths of the Dead, an act of apparent suicide that appalled and grieved the men who had been following him.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by truehobbit »

I agree with the several people who pointed out that Aragorn in the books is far from monolithic or 'flat', and that what PJ did is basically a cheapening (as with all the other character changes he came up with), although I wouldn't really call it cheapening, but, rather, simplification. PJ's character is a much simpler character than Tolkien's, easier to understand and quite superficial.
Note these are all roles he fills, as opposed to different aspects of his personality or levels of growth he attains.
I think these roles are far more realistic than the expectations some readers apparently have of this 'growth' thing - I must say that I find the concept of 'growth' a completely articifial one, and one that may be found in novel heroes (particularly in novels that try to be clever), but not in real people.
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Post by MaidenOfTheShieldarm »

truehobbit wrote:I think these roles are far more realistic than the expectations some readers apparently have of this 'growth' thing - I must say that I find the concept of 'growth' a completely articifial one, and one that may be found in novel heroes (particularly in novels that try to be clever), but not in real people.
I'm sorry to digress from the point of the thread but why is that? Do real people not grow? I would like to think that I'm at least a little more capable and smarter than I used to be. There are roles now that I would not have been able to fill a few years ago. I don't mean coming to grand realizations or relevations, but unless I misunderstand you, fulfilling different roles is often not the same as changing.
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Post by Primula Baggins »

But real people do usually grow and change—naturally with time and maturity, and more so if they do anything interesting or dangerous. And books tend to be written about people who do interesting or dangerous things.

I think that's what people are looking for: realism. They're just looking in the wrong place.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

In order to understand my position, one must first review where Aragorn, the archetypal King-in-waiting, came from. As Ax points out, for much of the drafting of the LOTR, of course, there was no Aragorn. His role in the story was played by Trotter the Hobbit, a mysterious "ranger" whose origins Tolkien was never quite sure about (the most developed concept was that he was one Peregrine Boffin, a Hobbit befriended by Bilbo who disappeared from the Shire the day he came of age and eventually was tortured in Mordor). However, as the sequel to The Hobbit more and more became subsumed by the greater depth of Tolkien’s mythology, it became more and more apparent that this was not appropriate and that this character had a much more important role to play in the story.

Before embarking on the effort to create a sequel to The Hobbit, the major new component of Tolkien’s mythology was the story of the Fall of Númenor. This was a critically important conception for Tolkien, and in hindsight provided the perfect bridge between the older mythology of the Elder Days that would become The Silmarillion, and the more modern (but still ancient) story of the end of the Third Age that was The Lord of the Rings. For anyone not familiar with the story of the development of the Númenor legends, I highly recommend reading volume 5 of the HOME series - “The Lost Road and Other Writings.” It is a fascinating story and really shows how critical the conception of the Fall of Númenor was to Tolkien.

This is obviously not the place for a synopsis of that story. Suffice it to say that it details how even the noblest of mankind (eventually conceived as the Children of Lúthien) can fall to the temptation of power unbridled. But included in this tragic tale is the idea that like the Phoenix, from the ashes will rise again a new hope, which became the Numenorian realms in exile. Yet we would later see in the story of Isildur the tragic flaw raise its ugly head again.

To make a very long story short, Tolkien eventually realized that this mysterious ranger character that he had created, but had such trouble identifying, actually was the culmination of this tale, which reached its tentacles back into the old tales and incorporated the conception of a touch of a ‘higher spirit’ elevating mankind, and that Trotter the Hobbit was actually Aragorn, son of Arathorn, descendant of the King of Men. Aragorn came to represent the redemption of mankind (the new New Hope) and ultimately, to quote Legolas, “is he not of the children of Lúthien? Never shall that line fail, though the years may lengthen beyond count.”

In the book, enough of this backstory is captured (in the text and appendices) so that Aragorn makes sense, even without the benefit of reading Tolkien’s other work (though Tolkien was absolutely right in believing that the Wars of the Jewels and the Ring should have been published together as they ultimately told one long connected story with Aragorn as in many ways the culmination of that story). However, in the context of the film, it is simply impossible to include enough of this back story to make such an archetypal portrayal make sense to anyone other than us Tolkien fanatics. This part of the story is largely told entirely through Isildur’s failure and Aragorn’s redemption of that failure, through his own journey of acceptance of his destiny.

I love the breadth and width of the tale that Tolkien weaved, and expect to find new patterns and seams in the fabric for the rest of my life. I didn't need to see the same exact story on the screen that I already have in the book(s); indeed, I believe an attempt to duplicate it would have inevitably failed. It would have been futile for PJ to try to repeat with crochet what Tolkien created with fine needlepoint. Instead, he (IMHO correctly) took the same themes and colors that Tolkien used and weaved them into a new pattern that is complementary of the original pattern. I for one am thrilled that he took this approach.

Book!Aragorn would have worked for me in the film is because I am so familiar with all of Tolkien's work, and the backstory that explains where Aragorn is at. I don't need to see his internal journey because I know his history so well, from the coming of the Edain into Beleriand, through the suffering the Edain went through in the wars against Morgoth and the union with the elder children of Iluvator, the glory and fall of Númenor, and the Numenorian realms in exile in ME, and how the Heirs of Isildur retreated into the shadows until their time would come again. Would B!A work for me in the film if I wasn't so familiar with all this? I don't think so.

Contrary to what some people seem to think, Film!Aragorn is no sissy. Other than his reluctance to accept the mantle of power that is his destiny, he is portrayed as quietly self-confident, and clearly worthy of that confidence, as he shows at Weathertop, at the Council, at Moria (both with the Watcher and in the battles with the Orcs and Cave Troll), at Parth Galen (particularly in resisting the call of the ring), at Helm's Deep, the Paths of the Dead (before it degenerates into farce), the fields of the Pellenor, challenging Sauron in the palantír, and when he resists Sauron's final temptation and charges the dark forces "for Frodo" :love: .

F!A is not portrayed the same way as B!A. But guess what? He doesn't need to be. Book!Aragorn lives forever as part of the work of the one and only J.R.R. Tolkien. Film!Aragorn shows another glimpse of this fascinating character from a different point of view. And this is a bad thing because of why?

Here's a quote from that ultimate purist, Christopher Tolkien:
I would be inclined to think that the original figure (the mysterious person who encounters the hobbits in the inn at Bree) was capable of development in different directions without losing important elements of his 'identify' as a recognisable character.(Return of the Shadow, p. 430.)


That's just what the filmmakers did with Aragorn, taking that "recognisable character" and developing it in different directions. In one of the promo clips that came out before ROTK was released, Philippa Boyens summed up that direction very well:
How do you assume a mantle of a King? How do you take that on yourself? How do you say I'm the one that you must follow? I think that that is what he is struggling with, because he has seen what power can do.
Tolkien had a whole backstory to explore this theme of the temptation of power. PJ and friends basically had just Aragorn. Overall, I am very pleased with what they (and Viggo - sorry vison, I think he did a fantastic job with the role) did.


My apologies to those who have seen some of these thoughts before.
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