Pride: Vice and Virtue (Beren)

[Andreth]

PRIDE: Vice and Virtue in Middle Earth

Pride (OE pryde)

1 : The quality or state of being proud: as
a. inordinate self-esteem
b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect
c: delight or elation arising from some act, possession or relationship
2: proud or disdainful behavior or treatment
3: ostentatious display

Pride is a major theme in Tolkien’s work. Again and again, I am struck how pride causes the downfall of so many. But, sometimes pride is a positive thing. It is what gives several characters strength in situations. Over the course of this discussion, my first on Hall of Fire, I want to look at various characters from the Legendarium and the role pride plays in their lives.

Túrin
With the publication of The Children of Húrin, the character of Túrin is very fresh for most of us.

We get a glimpse of Túrin’s future.
“Túrin was slow to forget an injustice or mockery: but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce.” CoH.

I also find several quotes from Sador very telling.
“ …for a man that flies from his fear may find that he has only taken a short cut to meet it.” And this one: “’That is true,’ answered Sador; ‘true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.” CoH

We read of Túrin’s pride after the death of Saeros.
“But Túrin said: ‘If the King were just, he would judge me guiltless. But was not one of his counselors? Why should a just king choose a heart of malice for his friend? I abjure his law and his judgment.’ ‘Your words are too proud,’ said Mablung, though he pitied the young man… ‘I refuse your bidding. I will not seek King Thingol’s pardon for nothing and I will go now where his doom cannot find me.’” CoH

Later King Thingol says
“…’The shaming of Searos and the hounding of him to his death were wrongs greater than the offence. They show a heart hard and proud… ‘This is an ungrateful foster-son, and in truth a man too proud for his state.’” CoH

After Túrin joins the outlaws, the tale says this;
“To Doriath Túrin could not, or in pride would not return…”

Recalling his conversation with Mablung with Beleg.
“There was reproof in his eyes, without question asked of me, for a deed I had not done. My Man’s heart was proud, as the Elf-king said. And so it still is, Beleg Cúthalion.” CoH

After the death of Beleg, Gwindor leads him to Nargothrond. In Nargothrond, he becomes a counselor of King Orodreth. Gwindor warns Finduilas that Túrin is proud and has a dark doom over him.
“’But this man is not Beren, even if he be both as fair and as brave. A doom lies on him: a dark doom. Enter not into it! And if you will, your love shall betray you to bitterness and death.’” CoH

It takes a little while but Túrin takes over.

“When five years had passed since Túrin came to Nargothrond, in the spring of the year, there came to Elves, and they named themselves Gelmir and Arminas, of the people of Finarfin; and they said that they had an errand to the Lord of Nargothrond. Túrin now commanded all the forces of Nargothrond, and ruled all matter of war; indeed he was become stern and proud, and would order all things as he wished or thought good.” CoH

Ulmo’s warning comes via Arminas and Gelmir.
“Say therefore to the Lord of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress, and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate.” CoH

Arminas and Túrin exchange words.
“’But others of the House of Hador bear themselves otherwise, and Tuor among them. For they use courtesy, and they listen to good counsel, holding the Lords of the West in awe. But you, it seems, will take counsel with your own wisdom, or with your sword only: and you speak haughtily.’” CoH.

And he would not let the bridge be broken. And we know what happened after that.

One episode not in the Children of Húrin but in Unfinished Tales is the taunting of Túrin by Glaurung regarding the Dragonhelm “’Then it must await a master of another name,’ said Glaurung; ‘for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly.’ And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in parley had looked no higher than Glaurung’s feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.”

Túrin comes to Brethil and in an echo of his days in Nargothrond. “For indeed, though no word was said, he now ordered things as he would, as if he were lord of Brethil, and no man heeded Brandir.” CoH

One major question is how much of what happened to Túrin was Morgoth’s curse and how much was his own doing. I am inclined to think that Túrin’s pride aided and abetted the curse.

Túrin also experiences a cycle of learning/humility, pride, and then fall several times with the last “fall” leading to his death. He seems humble and teachable at the beginning of each of his “adventures”. Then becomes over-confident in his abilities and less inclined to listen to others. This leads to a fall. And each time the fall is more costly in terms of the lives of others.

I think this why I have difficulty with Túrin’s role in the Second Prophecy. He caused the deaths of so many innocent people by his hubris that I have a hard time seeing him as a hero. And in my mind, the slaying Glaurung does not atone for this.

There were also chances for him to alter his course via the love of a good elf-woman, Nellas and Finduilas. But it was not to be. The references to Beren and Lúthien by both women are interesting when it is obvious Túrin is nothing like Beren. But I don’t really think either woman would have been able to keep Túrin from his appointment with his doom.

Thoughts and comments?

[Alatar]

You leave very little to add Andreth! Excellent piece.

[MithLuin]

I agree that the actions of Túrin make it hard to see him as an innocent victim. Morgoth is able to use his pride (and that of his parents) against him. Morwen's stubborn refusal to leave Dorlomin is hard to accept, as is her refusal to obey the wishes of Thingol once she does come to Doriath. As Melian sees, it is not easy to lightly set aside this curse.

Pride does have a positive connotation, in moderation. Specifically the "delight or elation arising from some act, possession or relationship" that you mention, or a healthy amount of self-respect. But Túrin's goes beyond that. He is confident in himself, and does not recognize any rightful authority. He is, by rights, Lord of Dorlomin - but he has no right to be Lord of Nargothrond and little right to be Lord of Brethil. Refusing the judgement of Thingol, his foster father, is simply stubborn pride. There are, consistently, people in his life who would intervene to save him, but he refuses to accept their help.

Pride goes before a fall, and is the deadliest of sins, being the root of Satan's fall. He thought to answer Michael's rhetorical "Who is like God?" by saying "I am!"

Tolkien likewise gives us a divine example of Morgoth's counterpart in Aulë, who is perhaps most like Morgoth in that he makes and shapes all of Middle Earth, and wishes to make children of his own. But unlike Morgoth, he does not hoard his creations, nor does he fail to submit them (in humility) to Eru. And so...he is unfallen. Aulë lacks all jealousy and overmastering pride.

Ofermod - the critique of the chivilaric behaviour of the Anglo-Saxon lord by the poet of the Battle of Malden that Tolkien wrote an essay on, translating it as 'overmastering pride'. "And thus, in his overmastering pride, he yielded the river, as should not have been done" (from memory). It is Beowulf's flaw in meeting the dragon, as well. Túrin certainly suffers from this "excess" of the Northern spirit. He does things because he can, not because they are wise. He is an irresponsible lord, more suited to be a hero, but unwilling to take orders from anyone else. (Though unlike Beowulf and Beortnath, Túrin is not seeking any chivalric honor, but rather...his own will.)

But even Túrin's pride is not matched by Fëanor's. The greatest of the Noldor had justifiable reason to be proud of the work of his hands - his Silmarils were beyond compare. But...he also took it too far. He did not acknowledge his own limitations (he could not make the light, merely contain it), and claimed a greater ownership than any artist should have. It was simply not true that anyone who withheld those gems from him deserved death. As his sons proved in agonizing detail, over and over and over again. It was not wrong for him to leave Valinor and go to Middle Earth to seek vengance against Morgoth. But it was wrong for him to bind his sons in a blasphemous oath, to lead his people out of Valinor, and to steal the ships of the Teleri. He went too far, and did not consider the needs of his people as a ruler should. He was using them. He, also, refused the counsel of the Valar. Whether he thought he was wiser or not, Morgoth was not defeated until they took up arms, so he would have done better to wait on their timing.

But there is plenty more to say about Túrin, so I won't drag the thread off onto Morgoth and Fëanor...yet

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Great post, Andreth, and great subject. Hopefully this will be the first of many discussions started by you here at the Hall of Fire. That is an excellent summary of the history of how Túrin's pride get's him in trouble. And I am pleased that MithLuin makes the point of the negative influence of Morwen's pride. But more about Túrin's parents in a moment.

I agree that the actions of Túrin make it hard to see him as an innocent victim. Morgoth is able to use his pride (and that of his parents) against him.

Does Morgoth "use" Túrin's pride against him? Or is he somehow the source of at least some of Túrin's pride? MithLuin points out, "As Melian sees, it is not easy to lightly set aside this curse." It has always been my contention that the malignant influence of Morgoth's curse was responsible, at least in part, for the prideful actions Túrin and his family (I would include Nienor Niniel in the proud category, as well) that led to so much sorrow.

I actually think that Húrin is perhaps the best example of the dichotomy of pride and vice and virtue. Is there anything more stirring than his last stand in the Nirnaeth, where he and his brother and their men allow for the escape of Turgon and what was left of his and Fingon's armies. Húrin's steadfastness, and his defiant cry ‘Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!’ as he slayed the orcs trying to capture him alive, is rightly hailed, but is not that steadfastness basically the same trait of stubborn pride that we see so clearly and so negatively in Húrin in The Wanderings of Húrin? And isn't the only real difference between the "great hero" Húrin the Steadfast and the pitiful old man whose stubborn pride helps destroy not just Brethil but Doriath itself the fact that the old man was under Morgoth's malignant influence?

Ah, but we were talking about Túrin, not his father, weren't we? I would argue that Túrin, too, was laboring under Morgoth's malignant influence, and that all of his actions must be seen in that light. On the other hand, his greatest accomplishment - the killing of Glaurung - could not have been achieved without his stubborn, prideful refusal to accept the impossibility of the task - fed and nurtured by his hate for the great dragon and his master.

[Andreth]

I have a list of characters to work from so we will get around to Fëanor, Húrin etc.

[axordil]

Does Morgoth "use" Túrin's pride against him? Or is he somehow the source of at least some of Túrin's pride?

Yes and yes, I believe. And ultimately the dragon, moved by Morgoth's will, proved masterful at manipulating that pride. But the curse is laid upon Húrin and his kin immediately after the Nirneath Arnoediad, and so the pressure started when Túrin was still young...but already fatherless.

Fatherless, as Tolkien could tell you, was not a good way to grow up.

is not that steadfastness basically the same trait of stubborn pride that we see so clearly and so negatively in Húrin in The Wanderings of Húrin?

It would be hard to pass a thin blade between the two, as it were. Decades of being force-fed the destruction of one's family explains how a virtue can become a fatal flaw.

He is an irresponsible lord, more suited to be a hero

And it is this heroic pride, which along with stoic despair, that is both the heart and the shadow of Germanic myth. It is both admirable and folly, as many of Túrin's actions are.

It is notable how many of the elves see the mark of Morgoth on Túrin, and realize that his life is not his own. That doesn't excuse his actions...but in those moments of hesitation, in which an action can go either way, the gentle but inexorable push of the breath of the will of Morgoth can make all the difference necessary.

[Inanna]

On the other hand, his greatest accomplishment - the killing of Glaurung - could not have been achieved without his stubborn, prideful refusal to accept the impossibility of the task - fed and nurtured by his hate for the great dragon and his master.

Was Túrin brave to have gone ahead and killed Glaurung or was he urged on by his pride? How do we differentiate between bravery and prideful stubbornness?

Bravery has been defined as:
1) brave spirit or conduct; courage; valor. (the first part is circular, and I don't like it)
2) showiness; splendor; magnificence.
3)a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear

The last one rings close to how Túrin behaved most of his life. He went forward, fought with Orcs, killed Glaurung without showing fear in the face of danger. Now it can be argued that he did not show fear because of his pride. So then is bravery simply going to face danger with pride?? Or can bravery also be facing danger with knees shaking??? Is one form "better" than the other?

[axordil]

Túrin had plenty of physical courage, partly from pride, partly from what can only be described as a deathwish. But he had little in the way of emotional courage, that is, the ability to look inward and struggle with the monsters he found there. And yes, that's from pride too. Nowadays we would say he was in denial.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Túrin had plenty of physical courage, partly from pride, partly from what can only be described as a deathwish. But he had little in the way of emotional courage, that is, the ability to look inward and struggle with the monsters he found there.

But was that really lack of emotional courage, or because the "monsters he found there" were so much worse than what anyone else had to face, because of Morgoth's curse? Could it be that, just as Húrin saw all things as if with Morgoth's eyes when looking outward, Túrin saw all things as if with Morgoth's eyes when looking inward?

[axordil]

Interesting question. And it is no accident that Morgoth shares the weakness of pride with his chief foes, which gives him insight into how to bring them down. Inside the prideful there is often self-loathing, which means outward is the only safe place to look...

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ho boy! that opens up quite a can of worms, which I don't have time to address right now (need to be in court this morning; I'm even wearing a tie). But I definitely will be back!

[axordil]

While you're busy, the mice will play.

Tolkien has a veritable palette of pride he employs. Contrast Fëanor with Fingolfin with Turgon with Thingol. Discernibly different manifestations of the same pitfall, all the way around.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And it is no accident that Morgoth shares the weakness of pride with his chief foes, which gives him insight into how to bring them down. Inside the prideful there is often self-loathing, which means outward is the only safe place to look...

I think (though I am not sure) that Tolkien would go even further than that. The quote in my sig (which comes from The Laws and Culture of the Eldar and is quoting Manwë himself) would suggest that Melkor's denial of Eru actually created evil, which would in turn suggest that Morgoth not only shares the weakness of pride that Túrin (and Fëanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, Turgon, etc.) suffered from (all in their own way, as I'm sure we will discuss in good time), but that he actually generated it. In other words, the negative aspects of pride that we have been discussing stem directly from the marring of Arda by Melkor.

Of course, it is my contention that the marring of Arda was an integral part of Eru's Plan (so that it could be Healed and thus be greater that the original Arda Unmarred), so in truth, that negative pride finds its "uttermost source" in Eru Himself.

[axordil]

Of course, it is my contention that the marring of Arda was an integral part of Eru's Plan (so that it could be Healed and thus be greater that the original Arda Unmarred), so in truth, that negative pride finds its "uttermost source" in Eru Himself.

Isn't there a fancy name for that particular heresy?

One can make an orthodox argument for exercising what we call free will being a result of our fallen natures. Being able to make an "incorrect" choice is fine--actually making it is not. But what is the point of a capability that cannot be used? Pushing back to first principles, it is indeed hard to see how Melkor's flaw could not have been there from the beginning...

Man, Tolkien must have hated jazz.

[Jnyusa]

Isn't there a fancy name for that particular heresy?

Rather than saying that the evil of Melkor was somehow predetermined along with all other aspects of Arda, I think a more correct representation of the heresy would be that there exists a perspective (Eru's perspective) from which the evil of Melkor is not truly evil but results from a higher good (free will) to which its consequences will eventually return.

If it were possible for the beings within Arda to yield completely, to have perfect humility, then Melkor's 'evil' would find no resonance ... it would simply fall on deaf ears, it would evaporate into the nothingness that it is.

What makes the third music even better than the first two, I believe, is its revelatory nature for the listener. When all consequences have been turned to good, they will finally understand by experience, which is a fuller understanding than mere obedience can provide, exactly what is their own creative power in this creation.

Jn

[axordil]

When all consequences have been turned to good, they will finally understand by experience, which is a fuller understanding than mere obedience can provide, exactly what is their own creative power in this creation.

Wm. Blake would agree with you, I think. The only path back to eternity is through fallen time, which means though fallen it is nonetheless blessed.

But it raised the question of culpability. There is no question that by the time of the War of the Jewels, Melkor is the sole author of his own--and Arda's--corruption. But the simple act of improvising with his own theme, which Eru must have planned on...

This brings us back to what I think is the central point of the discussion. If we are fated or cursed or otherwise have our free will hemmed in, at what point are we responsible for our actions?

[Jnyusa]

But it raised the question of culpability. There is no question that by the time of the War of the Jewels, Melkor is the sole author of his own--and Arda's--corruption. But the simple act of improvising with his own theme, which Eru must have planned on...

When you say that Eru "planned on" it, you are making it Eru's choice and not Melkor's. But I think it really is Melkor's choice, and that Melkor is culpable for it. Eru allows it within his/her creation, knowing that the nature of the creation is such that when all consequences have unfolded Melkor's evil will have come to nought.

This brings us back to what I think is the central point of the discussion. If we are fated or cursed or otherwise have our free will hemmed in, at what point are we responsible for our actions?

It is not the smackdown of Eru that "hems in" free will, I think. Rather, because each created being has free will they are all creating consequences that reverberate in every other being.

When you get to the very end of the story, what all who lived through it are saying is not, "Yes, Eru was right after all," but rather, "Given that every one of us was completely free and chose our own path, the story could not have had any other ending than this one."

But that is not predestination, except in the sense that our choices are determined by our character. If you want to say that Eru pre-set our characters so that our choices were not really choices after all, then that's a different ball of wax. But the people in the story don't experience it that way. Their experience is that they have a choice. And in choosing they discover themselves. The creation becomes aware of its own character, if you will. And that is the point of the exercise.

Jn

[axordil]

In the larger sense, perhaps. But I was thinking in terms of those characters for whom there is a secondary "hemming in" for good or ill--Húrin and his children and Tuor would be the opposing examples of type. What does it mean to have a fate/curse in Arda? Especially for the secondborn, who are otherwise not so bound to the Music?

[Jnyusa]

What does it mean to have a fate/curse in Arda?

That depends on whether or not you choose to accept it.

Jn

[axordil]

Seriously, within the context of Arda, what power do curses have? What does fate mean? I mean of course to the characters involved, not to the reader. If a curse only lets you hang yourself, it's not much of a curse, is it?