Pride: Vice and Virtue (Beren)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I have a lot to say about pride and one particular hobbit, but I don't want to jump the gun on Andreth's thread.

[axordil]

Well, yes.

Back to the topic at hand: while in a way Túrin and Húrin's pride both echoes that of the Noldor before them and presages that of the Numenoreans after them, it is less imperial and more personal...except that it too brings down realms. What is tolerable--even admirable--for an individual warrior is far too rash and risky for a lord. That's the conundrum at the heart of Beowulf, and of European chivalric culture afterwards.

[solicitr]

What is tolerable--even admirable--for an individual warrior is far too rash and risky for a lord. That's the conundrum at the heart of Beowulf

And what Tolkien explored in his essay on Maldon and ofermod.

[axordil]

Absolutely. But it's in parts of the Arthurian tales too, and it had real effects in the medieval world--note the number of kings and heirs to thrones that died in tournaments between 1100 and 1600 or so. And of course, there's the Crusades, which on one level were pointless exhibitions of chivalry writ large.

[Inanna]

Not the morally meek so much as the socially meek, those for whom ambition or lordship isn't even on the table as a possibility. What you don't have you can't lose.

Essentially what you are saying is that for a curse to work, the cursed person must be someone "important" - from this importance at birth comes pride - making the cursed person more "adept" to fulfill the curse. Or is it that the curse on soically important people is one which has a wider ranging adverse effect than that of the socially meek people. OR would Morgoth bother to curse only those which are from the line of lords, so that it would have maximum damage?

Did Morgoth's curse on Túrin cause more damage to the Elves and Man?

[solicitr]

and it had real effects in the medieval world--note the number of kings and heirs to thrones that died in tournaments between 1100 and 1600 or so. .

Yes, but. The proper occupation of royalty and niobility was the profession of arms- tournaments were an essential part of keeping your hand in (and showing everybody you weren't a wimp.) The sudden death of a monarch was certainly a Bad Thing- but not a cataclysm on a par with losing the King or Ealdorman *and his whole army*, leaving the realm open to the foe.

[axordil]

True, so far as it goes. But the fact that there was still a sense that the monarch needed to be a great warrior as well as a ruler is the underlying issue, that there was a heroic element endemic to lordship. In light of that expectation, the tale of Húrin and his children slides right onto the bookcase.

I find myself wondering if there were tournaments in Middle-earth.

[MithLuin]

I find myself wondering if there were tournaments in Middle-earth.

Funny you should mention it...

a fanfic featuring a tourney

In this particular story, they are competing in swordsmanship and archery, and it is done in Gondolin and, rather shockingly, among the Vanyar of Valinor.

This is one chapter of a much larger story, so don't worry if it doesn't make complete sense. But I thought it would be a neat example.

[axordil]

I meant in the canon.

[Andreth]

I wanted to reassure everyone that I haven't forgotten about this thread. I'm working on the first part of the discussion on Beren. I know things move slow around here but I also liked all the discussion that was generated. I don't want to lose that energy.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Glad to hear it, Andreth, and looking forward to the next phase of the discussion.

[Andreth]

I'm not sure how to change the topic header to alert people of the new sections.

We now turn our attention to the character of Beren. I’m doing this in two parts since Beren’s was at first an elf then later a man.

This is all material from the Book of Lost Tales II

“Now Beren was a Gnome, son of Egnor the forester who hunted in the darker places in the north of Hisilome. Dread and suspicion was between the Eldar and those of their kindred that had tasted the slavery of Melko, … Now the lies of Melko ran among Beren’s folk so that they believed evil things of the secret Elves. …all the Elves of the woodland though of the Gnomes of Dor-lómin as treacherous creatures, cruel and faithless…”

Beren is eventually brought before Tinwelint and Gwendeling (so glad these names got changed!) by Tinúviel. “’Who art thou that stumbleth into my halls unbidden?’ he had nought to say…” Tinúviel sticks up for him. “Therefore said Tinwelint now: ‘O Beren, son of the Noldoli, what dost thou desire of the elves of the wood ere thou returnest where thou camest?’ So great was the amazed joy of Beren’s heart when Tinúviel spake thus for him to her father that his courage rose within him, and his adventurous spirit that had brought him out of Hisilome and over the Mountains of Iron awoke again, and looking boldly upon Tinwelint he said: ‘Why, O king, I desire thy daughter Tinúviel, for she is the fairest and most sweet of all maidens I have seen or dreamed of.’ Then there was silence in the hall … and the king glanceing at the wild and rugged aspect of Beren burst also into laughter, whereat Beren flushed for shame.”

Tinwelint asks for a Silmaril in exchange for Tinúviel’s hand in marriage. An impossible task. “This indeed did Beren know, and he guessed the meaning of their mocking smiles, and aflame with anger he cried: ‘Nay, but ti’tis too small a gift to the father of so sweet a bride. Strange nonetheless seem to me the customs of the woodland Elves, like to the rude laws of the fold of Men, that thou shouldst name the gift unoffered, yet lo! I, Beren, a huntsman of the Noldoli will fulfil thy small desire,’ and with that he burst from the hall while all stood astonished… “Tinúviel chides her father for being cruel. “Then said the king…It is well for him the he lies not bound here in grievous spells for his trespass in my halls and for his insolent speech.”

Beren shows some pride before Melko after being captured. “Melko however looking at him was wroth, asking how a Gnome, a thrall by birth of his, had dared to fare away into the wood unbidden, but Beren answered that he was no runagate but came of a kindred of Gnomes that dwelt in Aryador and mingled much there among the folk of Men…albeit I am no renegade thrall, I do desire nothing so much as to serve thee in what small manner I may,’…”

After many trials and tribulations, the couple is in the woods. “’But I – lo, I must away into the solitude of the woods, for I have lost that Silmaril which I had, and never dare I draw near to Angamandi more, wherefore neither will I enter the halls of Tinwelint.’ Tinúviel hears him and tells him she will not leave him. “Then indeed was Beren glad at her sweet words, and fain would he have dwelt with her as a huntsman of the wild, but his heart smote him for all that she had suffered for him, and for he put away his pride.”

They return to Tinwelint’s halls and tell their story. “Then was the king’s heart turned to him by reason of his stout and courteous demeanour,… ‘Never again,’ said he, ‘O Beren I beg of thee, leave this court nor the side of Tinúviel, for thou art a great Elf and they name will ever be great among the kindreds.’ Yet Beren answered him proudly, and said ‘Nay, O King, I hold to my word and thine, and I will get thee that Silmaril or ever I dwell in peace in thy halls.’ And the rest of the story we know.

I want to point out that the word pride and the word proud are used only once each in these passages. This is quite a contrast to the frequent use of the word pride and it’s derivatives in Túrin’s story.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Andreth, you can just edit your first post in the thread to change the title. I'll go ahead and do it for you this time.

I'm going to wait to comment as I consider the story from the original Tale to be completely superceded by the subsequent versions, and thus not "canon".