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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:04 pm 
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VtF, if you'll note, I had to edit an error I made above calculating your previous predictions. Your new predictions for the top-5 have only 1 right! :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:29 pm 
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I saw that you edited it so that only 3 of the original ten were right, but only Saruman was a match in that batch, so two of my original top five were correct, no?

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:39 am 
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And the tension mounts! (Whoever besides Gandalf could possibly outrank Bilbo, Frodo and Sam???)


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:19 am 
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Morgoth, Sauron, Aragorn, and Túrin.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:42 pm 
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The top 2 of the Children of Eru:


#5 Túrin Turambar, the Black Sword and Bane of Glaurung – 3rd-house adan outlaw/counsellor
[TG:154,EoA:39,Wik:102,RF:86,JT:157,MD:60,DD:37,DK:18,JR:4,JG:3,HC:1,Let:1,LR/SL/CH:52,UT/HM:250,HoF+:36=1000pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Turin_Turambar
He’s the first character to reach a 1000pts, and has the largest entry on Wikipedia, just edging out Aragorn below. The number of stories we have of Túrin, stretching back to the beginning of the mythology add to his score, along with the number of names and epithets he has gone by. His 18pts from Kane is the most thus far, and he ranks 5th on the ‘favourite-characters’ lists composite. The only column of my spreadsheet having 0pts for Túrin is the initial ‘important-character’ thread. Seeing as the Second Prophecy of Mandos was never passed on by CT in any of the main novels, I suppose his role in it, only slaying the original Dark Lord at the end of time, gets overlooked. His entry in Drout’s Encyclopedia is by Richard C. West, and it finishes with “Tolkien’s mythology provided for an ultimate happy ending after the apocalyptic ending of the world, when it is prophesied that Túrin and his sister will be cleansed of their sin, and Túrin will assist the forces of Good in overthrowing Morgoth and the forces of Evil”. (Tolkien had a Devil put aside for him…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dbGGvsjf8

#4 Aragorn II, King Elessar, 1st King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor & Gondor – arnorian dúnadan ranger/king
[TG:237,EoA:123,Wik:99,RF:83,JT:62,MD:115,DD:55,JR:11,HC:1,Let:3,LR/SL/CH:77,UT/HM:186,HoF+:93=1145pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Aragorn_II_Elessar
Each character is now surpassing the next by over a hundred points. That Aragorn scores higher than Túrin is probably poetic justice, Aragorn being the 63rd great-grandson of Túrin’s first cousin. They can duke it out separately over who has the most monikers in total! Incidentally, all of Trotter’s indexed points were absorbed by Aragorn, being essentially the same character in terms of role. Interesting how Túrin remained very much the same character over nearly 50yrs of Tolkien’s writings, yet Aragorn morphed from a hobbit with wooden shoes to his eventual pseudo-Arthurian status rather late in the scheme of things. (Okay I’ll say it, we have the return of the King, and a tribute to Arwen…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pciMvPoeu0w


glossary:

*=as in CT's indexing in UT (ie. characters not appearing in Hobbit/LotR/AdvTB/Sil)
@=guest at Bilbo’s Farewell Party
(f)=female (n)=neutral

POINTS: TG=Tolkien Gateway,EoA=Encyclopedia of Arda,Wik=Wikipedia,RF=Robert Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-earth,JT=J.E.A. Tyler’s Tolkien Companion,DD=David Day’s A-Z of Tolkien,HC=Humphrey Carpenter’s Biography,JG=John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War,JR=John Rateliff’s History of The Hobbit,DK=Douglas Kane’s Arda Reconstructed,MD=Michael Drout’s Tolkien Encyclopedia,Let=Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien,LR/SL/CH=Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Children of Húrin,UT/HM=Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-earth,HoF+=votes from the Hall of Fire thread that initiated this project + a composite of selected favourite character lists.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:01 pm 
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You're really drawing this out! Fortunately.

Bohemian Rhapsody for Túrin is absolutely hilarious. Personally, I would have chosen Janis' "Ball and Chain" for Aragorn, but that probably has more to do with regretting her failure to appear. There certainly is a symmetry to having the King for the King.

I'm curious by your statement, again, that Túrin had the most points from AR "thus far". I can't imagine any of the remaining characters having more. Well, we'll see soon! (Or at least I will; I doubt anyone else cares.)

And what can we read into the fact that two of the top three are the two greatest conveyers of evil in Arda's history?

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
And what can we read into the fact that two of the top three are the two greatest conveyers of evil in Arda's history?





;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:50 pm 
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Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
I'm curious by your statement, again, that Túrin had the most points from AR "thus far". I can't imagine any of the remaining characters having more. Well, we'll see soon! (Or at least I will; I doubt anyone else cares.)


Oh, they care! :) And open your index & do the math. Who has multiple names contributing to their # of indexed lines that surpasses even Túrin?

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
And what can we read into the fact that two of the top three are the two greatest conveyers of evil in Arda's history?


See above, as you are in fact a contributer! ;) But of course the truth is that Tolkien saw Arda as a Fallen World paralleling our own. But don't give up hope, there's an angel in the mix...


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:25 pm 
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Based on your statement that I got one of the five right, there is still a chance that yov and I are right, and the angel prevails. However, I now believe that He Who Arises in Might, Melkor, Master of the Fates of Arda, Morgoth Bauglir, the Constrainer, will end up No. 1. If so, the one I got right would be Sauron at No. 2, and Gandalf would be third. ( :shock: )

And man, that Index was a lot of work, and yet I still find errors. How could I possibly have had separate entries for Melkor and Morgoth without even a "see also" with either of them? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:56 pm 
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Little is left in the way of suspense.


#3 Melkor the Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World – ainu/fallen-vala lord
[TG:209:,EoA:98,Wik:77,RF:131,JT:75,MD:86,DD:53,DK:24,JR:13,JG:5,HC:1,Let:3,LR/SL/CH:69,UT/HM:350;HoF+:70=1264pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Morgoth
A new height is reached, as the first Dark Lord acquires 350pts from UT & HoMe. And, yes, his 24pts are the most to any individual from Kane. Prior to the release of The Hobbit (the novel), he was the undisputed mover & shaker in Tolkien’s writings. And even HoMe10, post-LotR material, is named after, and further explores, him. (There are better versions, but the context of the real-life tragedy is everything here; and VtF will no doubt note how the Dead took the high road here…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt0ipUCfdlU

#2 Sauron the Deceiver, the ‘Nameless’ Enemy and Dark Lord of Mordor – maia lord
[TG:230,EoA:113,Wik:85,RF:178,JT:175,MD:80,DD:84,DK:2,JR:39,JG:1,HC:1,Let:5,LR/SL/CH:91,UT/HM:262,HoF+:86=1432pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sauron
He is the Lord of the Rings, after all, and of many more names and disguises. Tevildo, Prince of Cats, was an early one, whose points were included in Sauron’s. He’s demoted from his #1 status on the last run-through of this list, and it is poetic justice indeed, by he who supplants him. (Just be glad I didn’t use Lords of the Ring by Styx. Nine lives, cat’s eyes…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA

#1 Gandalf the Grey/White @ – maia wizard
[TG:511,EoA:74,Wik:81,RF:91,JT:109,MD:115,DD:63,DK:2,JR:21,JG:1,HC:1,Let:5,LR/SL/CH:83,UT/HM:162,HoF+:186=1505pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gandalf
When all is said and done, by end of LotR and of the Third Age, Tolkien’s Story can be thought of as Gandalf’s story. Not until I included Tolkien Gateway did he stride atop this list. His 511pts, seen in the massive link above, establishes the highest single score awarded on this list. Sauron eluded his ultimate defeat in the Second Age with sorcerous cunning. Gandalf was sent by the Lords of the West to make sure this didn’t happen again. (I have heard this as #1 on a list long ago, and of course liked how it followed Stairway. The last line of course parallels Sauron’s replacing Morgoth as the new dark boss, certainly not Gandalf’s replacing Saruman…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htz9CS-Zmms


There she be. I’m gone for a long weekend (during which I will be buying overly-expensive tickets to that band above’s 6th-last show ever later this year). But I’ll peek back in with some further wrap-up early in August. And for those that followed and enjoyed this, I’ve been honoured!

:)


glossary:

*=as in CT's indexing in UT (ie. characters not appearing in Hobbit/LotR/AdvTB/Sil)
@=guest at Bilbo’s Farewell Party
(f)=female (n)=neutral

POINTS: TG=Tolkien Gateway,EoA=Encyclopedia of Arda,Wik=Wikipedia,RF=Robert Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-earth,JT=J.E.A. Tyler’s Tolkien Companion,DD=David Day’s A-Z of Tolkien,HC=Humphrey Carpenter’s Biography,JG=John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War,JR=John Rateliff’s History of The Hobbit,DK=Douglas Kane’s Arda Reconstructed,MD=Michael Drout’s Tolkien Encyclopedia,Let=Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien,LR/SL/CH=Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Children of Húrin,UT/HM=Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-earth,HoF+=votes from the Hall of Fire thread that initiated this project + a composite of selected favourite character lists.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Are The Who doing yet another Farewell tour? I saw a show on their "last ever tour" back in 1981!

Using the Altamont Sympathy for the Devil for Morgoth is inspired. Perfect symbolism for Melkor's marring of Arda, as Altamont symbolized perfectly the marring of the utopian ideals of the 60's.

That having been said, such a wonderful accomplishment this list has been, Dân. I can't thank you enough.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Oh My. :) Gandalf on top.

Thank you so much, Dân.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:57 pm 
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I've moved the Middle-earth 1200 threads into a new Showcase forum, but left shadows in the Shibboleth forum. If ever a project deserved to be showcased, this is it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:12 am 
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Such a huge amount of focused work on a topic that interests so many of us! Yes, it definitely deserves to be showcased, and it's an honor for our board that Dân has posted it here.

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― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:51 pm 
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That was an amazing project and it deserves a broad Tolkien audience.

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‘It’s a lot more complicated than that -’
‘No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.’
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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:05 am 
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:agree:

I didn't comment at all during the long months of suspense and discussion because I had nothing to add, but it's been a very interesting thread to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:42 am 
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This has been delightful. Thank you so much!


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:19 pm 
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Thanks everyone, for all the kind words!

I do plan to tally the totals and subtotals all of the races & occupations soon, for my own interest of course (as all of this has really been), but will of course share the results on this site & thread.


Here, however, I give the breakdown of the secondary list: (1pt for song appearance; 0.5pts for a song-writing credit; 0.1pts for a supplementary video appearance...)

22.5pts The Beatles/John Lennon/Paul McCartney/George Harrison
20pts Led Zeppelin/Page & Plant/Honeydrippers
11.1pts The Rolling Stones
9pts The Who
8pts Pink Floyd
8pts Rush/Max Webster
7.1pts Crosby, Stills, Nash, & Young/Neil Young/Stephen Stills
6pts Jimi Hendrix
6pts CCR/John Fogerty
6pts Black Sabbath/Ozzy Osbourne
6pts Genesis/Peter Gabriel/Phil Collins
5.1pts Bruce Springsteen & the E-Street Band
5pts The Doors
5pts Queen
5pts Aerosmith
5pts U2
4pts Elvis Presley
4pts AC/DC
4pts The Police
4pts Supertramp/Roger Hodgson
4pts Styx
4pts Iron Maiden
3.1pts Eric Clapton/Cream
3pts Lynyrd Skynyrd
3pts Elton John
3pts Rod Stewart/The Faces
3pts Simon & Garfunkel
3pts Yes
3pts Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band
3pts Heart
3pts Journey
3pts Jethro Tull
3pts Talking Heads
3pts Boston
3pts Metallica
3pts Deep Purple/Rainbow/Dio
2.5pts Bob Dylan

My opinion, but I think that's a who's who of Rock & Roll. :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:55 pm 
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Cool. I look forward to the totals and subtotals.

Of course, Bob needs to be higher on that list, but at list he is there. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Arda 300
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:55 am 
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I had to change the video for Frodo (Hey Jude) because the version I used is apparently banned everywhere (?), thus I edited in a studio version (both here & TORC) that I hope passes the muster. So if consistency matters at this point, the master-list can be edited accordingly.

And as for Bob, I agree. But I couldn't find an adequate match for 'Like A Rolling Stone', 'The Times They Are A Changin', or 'Blowin In The Wind' (though I was considering the latter for Manwë). It should be noted that he is closer to the top than the bottom, as I only included those over 2pts. I'm sure you feel similarly about your band's absence on that list, so I give here all those who attained 2pts: The Grateful Dead, David Bowie, Jefferson Airplane, The Animals, The Allman Brothers, Fleetwood Mac, The Doobie Brothers, Steppenwolf, Van Halen, Tom Petty, Bad Company, Pearl Jam, Guns'N'Roses, ELO, Meat Loaf, Ted Nugent, Prince, Procol Harum, Blue Oyster Cult, The Marshall Tucker Band, and Van Morrison at 1.1

That should elevate Bob a little, and add to the Who's Who :)


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